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Old 12-15-2010, 04:22 PM   #1
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Southern US Border Violence

i'll start off with this:

4 in custody after border patrol agent killed - CNN.com
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:29 PM   #2
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An even more depressing thing to track would be the regular murders of Mexican police, soldiers, lawyers, journalists and migrants who refuse to collaborate with the cartels.

I don't know what the best solution is.
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:49 AM   #3
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I don't know what the best solution is.


Gov. Rick Perry wants to invade and occupy. that's one possibility.
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:24 AM   #4
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An even more depressing thing to track would be the regular murders of Mexican police, soldiers, lawyers, journalists and migrants who refuse to collaborate with the cartels.

I don't know what the best solution is.
I've been meaning to start a thread about this for months. But, where-T-F to start?

Very sad about the border agent--but also sad about the almost countless bodies showing up in Mexico.
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:31 PM   #5
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Well, you could hardly ask for a better argument for legalizing drugs. And I say that through gritted teeth; I'm not at all happy with the prospect of our government getting into distributing these substances to its citizens. But the incentives we're creating, both domestically and south of the border, through criminalization are just monstrous, undefeatable.
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:48 PM   #6
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Well, you could hardly ask for a better argument for legalizing drugs. And I say that through gritted teeth; I'm not at all happy with the prospect of our government getting into distributing these substances to its citizens. But the incentives we're creating, both domestically and south of the border, through criminalization are just monstrous, undefeatable.
It's really seems to the only solution--Take the profit-motive away.

I hate that so much of the incentive to fight drugs is the revenue that it brings to law enforcement, but how much of that revenue goes back to fighting drugs? All of it? It is a self-perpetuating problem.

I don't blame law enforcement agencies. When you are presented with this tool for revenue in what is otherwise meager times, obviously you do what you need to.

But, we need to be smarter about this. It's not a winnable war.
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Well, you could hardly ask for a better argument for legalizing drugs. And I say that through gritted teeth; I'm not at all happy with the prospect of our government getting into distributing these substances to its citizens. But the incentives we're creating, both domestically and south of the border, through criminalization are just monstrous, undefeatable.
I have to agree with this, too. Entirely. Add in the fact that it's hard for people to follow these laws against drugs when it's been proven that the very people picked to enforce them, in both countries, get caught up in the drug trade, too, and it's a total mess and proof that our "War on Drugs" has failed miserably.

It never ceases to amaze me just how much control the cartels have over every aspect of life in these towns in Mexico. My heart goes out to the everyday citizens, they're living in an insane terror state. No wonder so many of them try to get the hell out of Dodge and go elsewhere.

Angela
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:38 PM   #8
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The Libertarian Party has advocated the return of the legalizing of drugs since it's start.

This does not mean that the Libertarian Party endorses or encourages the use of drugs, but it is simply not the role of the federal government to ban certain drugs.


This continued War on Drugs only results in more crime and violence.

I think there are better solutions for helping people with drug abuse and addiction.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:03 PM   #9
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The Libertarian Party has advocated the return of the legalizing of drugs since it's start.

This does not mean that the Libertarian Party endorses or encourages the use of drugs, but it is simply not the role of the federal government to ban certain drugs.


This continued War on Drugs only results in more crime and violence.

I think there are better solutions for helping people with drug abuse and addiction.
It's one issue that I agree with the Libertarian party in theory. The problem is they're inconsistant with it...
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:23 PM   #10
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The Libertarian Party has advocated the return of the legalizing of drugs since it's start.

This does not mean that the Libertarian Party endorses or encourages the use of drugs, but it is simply not the role of the federal government to ban certain drugs.


This continued War on Drugs only results in more crime and violence.

I think there are better solutions for helping people with drug abuse and addiction.



We handle alcohol regulation fairly well (and the massive tax revenue it brings in).
I think we can handle drugs, too.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:55 PM   #11
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We handle alcohol regulation fairly well (and the massive tax revenue it brings in).
I think we can handle drugs, too.


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Old 12-16-2010, 09:58 PM   #12
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So you legalize drugs. It still doesn't change the fact that the Mexican economy is largely dominated by corporate oligarchs and a corrupt political elite.

As long as you have an underemployed and underpaid population, drugs are really only the least of one's concerns.
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:34 AM   #13
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So you legalize drugs. It still doesn't change the fact that the Mexican economy is largely dominated by corporate oligarchs and a corrupt political elite.

As long as you have an underemployed and underpaid population, drugs are really only the least of one's concerns.
Sure, but if you can start to remove the drug fighting, then maybe (a huge maybe), the poverty and inequality can be addressed better.

I'd prefer my tax dollars go for food aid/etc. in Mexico rather than guns.


I should try and find an article on it, but there is an increase in organic farming in Mexico to supply U.S. demands.
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Old 12-17-2010, 09:06 AM   #14
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Sure, but if you can start to remove the drug fighting, then maybe (a huge maybe), the poverty and inequality can be addressed better.
I find that to be painfully idealistic, with a whole other can of worms to be opened. So we "legalize drugs"--which ones? "All" of them? Where does one then draw the line between one the government is banning because it is "recreational" and one that is downright dangerous? Certainly, the vast majority of these illicit drugs are being banned due to their danger. If we only legalize the "non-dangerous" ones, I imagine that they'll be the not-as-hard ones, and there will certainly still be demand for them. If we legalize "all" of them, who is going to manage the health/social costs of a set percentage of the population with health problems? We can say that we'll tax them to death, but then that leaves open the black market all over again, as a lot of drug addicts don't exactly have a lot of money as it is.

More or less, if it isn't drugs, it's going to be something else as long as it is far more advantageous to operate in the black market. And the Mexican economy has some major structural issues that makes it far more complicated to fix than just drug legalization.

Quote:
I'd prefer my tax dollars go for food aid/etc. in Mexico rather than guns.
They don't need handouts. They need sweeping market reforms. The poster boy for what's wrong in Mexico:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Slim

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The Mexican magnate's rising fortune has caused a controversy because it has been amassed in a developing country where per capita income does not surpass $14,500 a year, and nearly 17% of the population lives in poverty. Critics claim that Slim is a monopolist, pointing to Telmex's control of 90% of the Mexican landline telephone market. Slim's wealth is the equivalent of roughly 5% of Mexico's annual economic output. Telmex, which is 49.1% owned by Slim and his family, charges among the highest usage fees in the world, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

According to Professor Celso Garrido, an economist at the Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Slim's domination of his country's conglomerates chokes off growth of smaller companies, resulting in a shortage of good jobs and driving many Mexicans to seek better lives north of the Rio Grande.
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Old 12-17-2010, 09:14 AM   #15
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The acclaimed HBO show The Wire is centered around this very issue. Anybody that's interested in this shit should watch that show. Immediately.

Yes, yes, it's fictional. And it doesn't take place on the US/Mexico border, but instead in project housing in inner city Baltimore. But every time I hear about or think about all of the terrible things/murders/gun violence that occur because of the illegal drug trade, I think of that show. It taught me more about the drug trade than any article or news report could have. That might sound sad, but it's no joke.

I think about the plot line where a Baltimore police officer squared off a few blocks in the inner city where drugs were completely legalized. He named it "Hamsterdam." Crime became basically nonexistent in the legal drug zone and, instead of money and manpower and resources used to catch the bad drug guys, they were able to employ health services and doctors to the addicts and the people in "Hamsterdam." It worked, until it got shut down by the higher ups in office.

That always seemed like such an intriguing idea to me. Would it work in real life in America? Who knows. I don't know much about the issue (clearly, because I'm basing my knowledge on a television show) but, fuck, maybe we should give it a shot?

American gangster gangsta rappers would have absolutely nothing to rap about anymore if we legalized drugs. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.
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