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Old 08-19-2009, 01:26 PM   #106
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And that's where many feel we're headed.

The Impromptu Obamanomics is failing, and he's worse than a drunken salior in a whorehose with spending-at least a druken sailor stops when he is out of money. This administration simply prints more money.

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So, now. Answer the rest of the challenges presented in this thread.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:26 PM   #107
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I think Obama has trounced Bush's spending in only a few short months vs Bush's 8 years.]
Figures?
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:36 PM   #108
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Mussolini wasn't the father of fascism. He probably wasn't even a true fascist, more of populist/Peronist.
Care to explain the origin of the very word fascist without including Benito Mussolini or the National Fascist Party (Partito Nazionale Fascista, PNF).
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But anyway, Mussolini describing himself as a socialist makes it automatically true, right? I'm pretty sure Osama Bin Laden proclaims himself a defender of freedoms.
While it is certainly true that he eventually left the Socialist Party to go off and, sorry but it's true, invent fascism. His economic policies (minimum wage laws, progressive tax system, profit restrictions) educational (secular, state youth orginazations), increased social spending and a move away from private ownership of land and laissez-fairecapitalism are much closer to socialism than anything Right-wing by todays political measures.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:41 PM   #109
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Were conservatives handed different history books than the rest of the world?

Seriously appalling stuff...
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:49 PM   #110
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As usual for you, you answer the one-liners
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME !! This coming from "one and done" martha. I challenge anyone to check through the recent posts of myself and those of martha across threads and judge who tries to make arguments and points and who is an internet harpy whose sole purpose seems to be to distract and irritate.

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and then make a few posts with easy lists and quotes, but leave the real challenges unanswered.
Why don't you educate me martha? Why don't YOU take the time to construct a post with actual information.
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I don't hold out any hope that you'll change, but it's fun to point out patterns.
As opposed to offering something constructive of course.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:54 PM   #111
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Were conservatives handed different history books than the rest of the world?

Seriously appalling stuff...
You tell me the origins of fascism per your history books then. Or is that too much trouble?

You explain to me where I'm wrong then. Or is that too much trouble?
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:09 PM   #112
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You tell me the origins of fascism per your history books then. Or is that too much trouble?

You explain to me where I'm wrong then. Or is that too much trouble?
I agree that Mussolini has to be used when discussing the beginnings of Fascism, but everything else you have wrong. Basically your only argument is that both Socialism and Fascism aren't capitalism therefore they must be the same, but you couldn't be more wrong.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:11 PM   #113
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Were conservatives handed different history books than the rest of the world?

Seriously appalling stuff...
well, when it comes to creationism, this is actually true...
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:17 PM   #114
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As has already been pointed out, you're clearly just cutting and pasting here.
Is there any other way to accurately present a quote? Or should I be embellishing or modernizing them in some way?
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If you actually knew the history of how the Fascists came to power in Italy, there's no way you could take those quotes with a straight face. The campaigns in the Po Valley and Puglia, the crushing of the 1922 strike, the March on Rome--look it up. And note what the political affiliation of the people the Blackshirts were publically beating and executing, burning and looting the homes and offices of, and forcing out of local office was (hint: they weren't rightists).
Shall we discuss Mussolini's "Third Way" or how fascism came to be viewed as "right-wing" today? Anyway, now you know the context of the quotes I "cut & pasted." Even as he clashed with them he felt a kinship. Even as he quit the party and Avanti! he believed he had just found in the PNF a more efficient way to advance their cause.
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Are you familiar with Mussolini's distinction between 'heroic,' 'static' and 'decadent' capitalisms?
Perhaps BVS, martha, Tiger Edge or UberBeaver can contrast and compare for us.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:19 PM   #115
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Figures?

*yawn*

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Obama Spending Shocks in Scale, Builds Upon Bush: Kevin Hassett
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Commentary by Kevin Hassett


March 2 (Bloomberg) -- The gap between rhetoric and hype in President Barack Obama’s budget is as wide as the Pacific Ocean. Obama has not offered change; he has offered a continuation of George W. Bush’s policies.

Obama is not the anti-Bush. He is Bush on steroids.

Bush’s policies could be summarized in one sentence: Spend like a drunken sailor and don’t pay for it. Obama’s policies can be summarized by the same sentence, except that Obama goes beyond drunk to alcohol poisoning.

If Bush policies were disastrous, as Obama claims, then why is he continuing them?

Sure, Obama’s fans might say government finally is going to restore some fairness by spending on health care and other problems. Fact is, this was Bush’s core belief too, which is why he championed and signed the massive prescription-drug benefit under Medicare. In the end, Bush offered voters juicy benefits without paying for them.

That’s exactly what Obama is doing too. Only now, the scale of spending is becoming truly shocking.

In January 2008, the Congressional Budget Office put out a 10-year forecast that included a projection for government spending. The forecast, at the end of the Bush spending spree, saw government spending in 2009 at about $3 trillion, increasing to $4.3 trillion by 2018.

Long-Term Spending

Federal spending for 2009 turned out $900 billion higher than was expected, because of the near-term policies associated with the financial crisis and the recession. Lost amid the hype about Obama cutting the deficit in half, however, is the fact that most of this higher spending sticks. Obama plans to spend $4.9 trillion in 2018, about $550 billion higher than the CBO’s projection.

That’s right, $550 billion more.

Looking at the entire 10 years, and extrapolating out the CBO number to include an estimate for 2019, Obama has proposed that government spending over the next 10 years be $5.3 trillion higher than the CBO projected just last year.

Those Obama defenders might point out that the CBO baseline assumes government spending only increases with inflation. But holding spending steady after the binge of the last eight years is hardly a radical idea.

And even if we use another baseline -- allowing government spending to increase along with the economy -- Obama’s budget would increase spending over the next 10 years by $3.7 trillion relative to what we thought last year.

How about revenue? Many of the Obama’s tax increases -- including allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire after 2010 -- were already in the CBO baseline.

Shrinking Revenue

The rash of recent economic bad news wasn’t part of the CBO estimate, however, so tax revenue will surely be lower over the entire forecast horizon. Last year at this time, the CBO thought we would collect $4.5 trillion in revenue in 2018. The Obama budget now expects to raise $4.2 trillion.

Even correcting for Obama’s admirable honesty concerning a real fix of the alternative minimum tax, and its resulting drop in tax revenue collected, his plan would raise less revenue than we thought we would get last year. And yet he plans to jack up spending.

Bush increased spending because of the Iraq war and because his “compassionate conservatism” expanded the reach of the federal government significantly. Obama will spend less on Iraq and more on other things. The basic principle is the same.

The main difference between Bush and Obama is their position on the marginal tax rate. Bush left the top rate on high incomes at 35 percent. Obama plans to let it return to 39.6 percent. To argue that Obama has offered an ambitious new vision, you have to believe that increasing the marginal tax rate back to where Bill Clinton left it is somehow a revolutionary idea with significant economic consequences.

Not Novel

It is hard to characterize this move as novel. Al Gore opposed the Bush tax cuts in 2000, and John Kerry argued that they should be repealed in 2004. Obama is just delivering on their promises.

And it is hard to make the case that this change will produce any significant economic benefits. On the one hand, the skyrocketing deficit might be a little lower, which might provide some economic benefit. On the other hand, the higher marginal tax rate will discourage work, increase taxes on small businesses and thus produce some economic harm. On net, the policy is probably a small negative.

Obama should stop claiming that Bush policies created the mess that we are in. If they did, then Obama’s policies will only make things worse.

(Kevin Hassett, director of economic-policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, is a Bloomberg News columnist. He was an adviser to Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona in the 2008 presidential election. The opinions expressed are his own.)

To contact the writer of this column: Kevin Hassett at khassett@aei.org

Last Updated: March 2, 2009 00:01 EST

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Old 08-19-2009, 02:21 PM   #116
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YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME !! This coming from "one and done" martha. I challenge anyone to check through the recent posts of myself and those of martha and judge who tries to make arguments and points and who is an internet harpy whose sole purpose seems to be to distract and irritate.
"Internet harpy" I can only hear Richard Burton screaming that at Elizabeth Taylor. Awesome shit.



Yeah, I make one-liner smart-ass posts all the time. But never am I making those to defend taking away rights from others, twisting history to suit my purposes, avoiding any real discussion, selectively answering only the questions that are easy.

You didn't answer yolland's post, or pretty much any of Sean's, but you begged off on serious discussion because some of us ridiculed the very idea you can't defend with any meaning.

But go ahead, dodge the serious questions and focus on me.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:22 PM   #117
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The distinction between authoritarianism (which usually better characterizes fascist states) and totalitarianism is an important one; totalitarianism by nature and design destroys civil society completely.
Interesting. I've never heard a distinction made between the two. What would be an example of a totalitarian state as opposed to authoritarian. Would you say North Korea or Myanmar are totaltitarian?

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And that's where many feel we're headed.
Apparently, Diamond knows the difference. . .

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No, its official name was the Italian Socialist Party. He was a member of the leadership of the party and in fact was in charge of the editorship of it's national newspaper Avanti!

But of course he was never a socialist.
Isn't this a bit like saying that all Christians are like Jim Jones?

The funny thing is I'm not even addressing whether socialism is a "good" or "bad" system. I'm just talking about whether socialism and fascism are in fact equal to each other.

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You tell me the origins of fascism per your history books then. Or is that too much trouble?

You explain to me where I'm wrong then. Or is that too much trouble?
Look, we're all busy. We've all got "real" lives that demand our attention (I would assume), so I don't hold it against you that you haven't pulled out a fully annotated and carefully sourced dissertation on why fascism is simply socialism in disguise. I know I don't have the time for that kind of thing either. You'd have to be a genius coughcoughyollandcoughcough to do that.

BUT, I will say that you've consistently sidestepped the tough questions in favor of the softballs--the stuff that's easy to refute. I know I asked what I thought were some pretty good questions that don't require doing a load of scholarly research, just a carefully reasoned argument, and they're still unanswered. I respect it when someone tackles the hardest questions/positions posited, not the easiest.

To be fair, you're pretty much alone in this, so I have to give you credit for that. Those of us on the other side can usually sit around and wait for someone else on the board to do our fighting for us, whereas it's just you all by your lonesome which has to be daunting. I am glad you're here and I always perk up when I see your posts because I know someone is keeping it interesing. I just think you COULD keep it even MORE interesting is all . . .
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:23 PM   #118
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I
Shall we discuss Mussolini's "Third Way" or how fascisism came to be viewed as "right-wing" today?


Perhaps BVS, martha, Tiger Edge or UberBeaver can contrast and compare for us.
She didn't ask us to. So go ahead and discuss it.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:29 PM   #119
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Isn't this a bit like saying that all Christians are like Jim Jones?
More like saying that the Republican Party and the Irish Republican Army are one in the same, because they have the name "Republican" in common. "National socialism" and "socialism" have just as little in common with each other, and anyone who says otherwise are intellectually dishonest. Or lazy.

Quite frankly, Hitler and Mussolini certainly didn't find it difficult to differentiate between fascism and socialism when it came to banning socialist political opposition. So why do American conservatives find it so hard?
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:32 PM   #120
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^ harpy.
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