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Old 07-29-2011, 12:09 PM   #76
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Listen to George Carlin talk about the Owners of America. Provocative and, I think, true. The rich own your country and it's getting worse and worse.

‪George Carlin - The Owners of America‬‏ - YouTube
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:27 PM   #77
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Yeah, there have been people harping on this for years and years and unfortunately a lot of them are seen as being on the Far Left. Like Carlin and Ralph Nader. So the message has always been seen by conservatives as simply 'class warfare'.

Hopefully more and more people are starting to wise up.
But I doubt it.

It's not really even 'class warfare'. Rich vs everybody else, Us vs them.
There are lots of rich folks who don't do this shit. But if they have a political axe to grind, they certainly do. It's about corporations and fatcat-funded lobbyists owning almost all political influence. John McCain used to make this same argument before 2008. That's why people like me and Bill Maher supported him in 2000 before Dubya slimed him. And of course, that was before he sold his soul to the Machine to become President in 2008.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:43 AM   #78
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Sums it up:

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Old 07-30-2011, 10:16 AM   #79
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Could you guys get this solved before I get back from Moncton? A U.S. Government default would really harsh my post tour high.

kthxbai




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Old 07-31-2011, 08:41 AM   #80
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looking scary isn't it...
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:53 AM   #81
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A lot of concern and anger over the Tea Party in UK media today. Confusion too.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:58 AM   #82
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Definitely a lot of anger over here. (From the Observer)

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Old 07-31-2011, 02:24 PM   #83
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UK - The Guardian The Tea Party is a real threat to America

UK - The Independent Tea Party holds US and the world to ransom

Germany - Der Speigel Annihilating Democracy with the Tea Party
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:24 PM   #84
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has the term "Cold Civil War" caught on across the pond yet? (it's actually been around for a few years, but has caught fire this week in the blogosphere)

that's the new (yet old) meme over here.

it's 1862 again, only being played out like 1961.
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:47 PM   #85
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Every expert I've seen on tv says that these cuts without revenue increases will lead to even higher unemployment. I thought the Republicans wanted JOBS?

I want paychecks to stop for all these politicians. I want to go all Cowboys and Aliens on them with Daniel Craig. Then we can hang out after. Right now a cowboy movie with cowboys and Indians being attacked by aliens makes way more sense to me than our f'ed up govt.
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Old 07-31-2011, 06:35 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
has the term "Cold Civil War" caught on across the pond yet? (it's actually been around for a few years, but has caught fire this week in the blogosphere)

that's the new (yet old) meme over here.

it's 1862 again, only being played out like 1961.
I have not heard it in the media over here. I think we have a problem in the UK and likely the rest of Europe of actually conceptualising the problems in the US, the whole debate is so polarised (though I think since the current and last government's have been in power we're getting a bit more of that). It's just no one over here would even consider electing the Republicans (as they are at the moment) or tea partiers over here, it's difficult to understand the power they wield to actually do something this drastic to your country.

Generally American politics i've found fascinating but incredibly alien, and I use you guys in Free your mind to get more info or clarity on the subjects as usually in the media here some things are a bit skipped over or left unexplained.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:22 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
I thought the Republicans wanted JOBS?
No, no, no, no.

There can't be more jobs right now. . .not while Obama is on office. He'd just take credit and sail to re-election next November. Right now it's vital that unemployment continue to rise.

I dare the handful of conservatives on this forum to say they'd like to see unemployment decrease under Obama's watch.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:15 PM   #88
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The Republicans could decide the Tooth Fairy was responsible for our economic malaise, and within 3 months we'd see Obama on TV urging Americans to keep an open mind about paranormal tooth pilfers.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:04 AM   #89
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or, we realize that politics is the art of the possible and is all compromise and negotiation, and the present president has to deal with a party that is controlled by suicide cult fanatics who were, yes, elected in droves in 2010 and control one of the two houses of congress. the Tea Partiers are insane but that doesn't mean that they can be ignored.
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:12 AM   #90
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I think many Obama defenders are using a narrow truth about the justifiable concessions effective political leaders make to balance principles against achievable political reality, to defend an absolutely unacceptable years long broader trend of seemingly irrational choices that I think deliberately establishes a conservative playing field in the background to create the parameters for the compromise. Then the Administration turns to the liberal wing and makes mournful faces about the terrible concessions we had to make.

4 case points:

1) the Affordable Care Act
2) the December 2010 Tax Cuts
3) the January 2011 failure to reform the filibuster/60 vote requirement
4) this recent debt ceiling crisis

#1 was the formative experience for analyzing the rest of the cases. I read a really persuasive analysis in early 2010 about the Affordable Care Act, which essentially said that despite all my liberal angst-no public option, weaker subsidies, slower enactment- the way the playing field was setup with 60 votes in the Senate meant that as long as conservatives and conservative Democrats could tolerate the status quo, or no bill, that meant Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman held de facto veto power. And so the bill moved to the right, and that was ok.

#2 directly led to #4 by agreeing to Republican demands to increase the deficit by extending the Bush tax cuts, without getting a debt ceiling increase in exchange. This was a deliberate choice that caused the current possibility of default.

We're not going to see the first hand consequences of #3 for a while yet, but should a miracle happen and the Democrats re-take the House in 2012, rest assured that we're going to be patted on the head and told that any effective climate change strategy, or effective liberal justice, or effective single payer is just going to be held up by Susan Collins and Lindsay Graham's demands dontchaknow. Rhetoric about how Democrats totally believe in liberal policy seems pretty vapid if they willingly embrace legislative options that make it impossible.

Finally, #4. This really irritates me. Let's ignore how Obama's rhetoric on debts and deficits started aping Republicans, let's move ahead to early July, when the Administration explicitly tried to squelch the growing movement to invoke the 14th Amendment. Just keep in mind, with compromise and negotiation, what effective use of that entails. Instead of keeping the issue alive until now as leverage, a sort of Damocles' sword hanging above the Republicans' head to minimize their demands lest Obama decide negotiation's not worth it and Republicans end up with nothing, Jay Carney and the White House PR go out of their way to say they don't believe it's a useful option. Why on earth would you shoot yourself in the foot like that? Even if you have a questionable case, its presentation as a plausible option supports your negotiating position.

My options at this juncture are to believe that Obama's either an idiot or really smart. I'm going with intelligent. I hear about 11-dimensional chess every so often, and I agree: the man's patient, and he knows how to get what he wants. He wanted a Grand Bargain that would take the deficit "off the table", and whatever wacky demands the Republicans come up with he makes a conscious choice to entertain. The seemingly haphazard way he places forks and spoons makes far more sense once I realized he's just choosing to set the table in a different way.
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