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Old 08-09-2011, 09:50 AM   #196
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They're all fucking losers IMO. Obama is in bed with Wall Street, (as is everyone else). And you're right, he's a poor, poor leader. Congress will make/pass the budget, but he really needed to just take ownership.

He's great at giving an inspirational speech, and I think he meant well with the Health Care, but the fact is he isn't some grand chess player. He's out of his league.

But.......

I'll still take this over McCain and Sara Palin.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:57 AM   #197
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Right now taking it over McCain and Palin is minimal solace. I know what you mean but it is.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:22 AM   #198
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He's great at giving an inspirational speech, and I think he meant well with the Health Care, but the fact is he isn't some grand chess player. He's out of his league.

But.......

I'll still take this over McCain and Sara Palin.
I'll take ending DADT, the beginning of the end of DOMA and some other good things from Obama.
But, not cleaning up our fiscal house both on Wall Street, in the banks and in our tax code will make the lives of millions, possibly hundreds of millions, miserable.
Obama really is looking like the lesser evil versus the HOPE from the 2008 election.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:23 AM   #199
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But I think you do have to ask yourself would this person or that person have done better given the same circumstances? In some instances yes, but in others his back was up against the wall. I think obama's biggest fault has been spelling out the issues. This debt debacle wouldn't have been if he just spelled it out, same with healthcare. The majority of Americans support the individual mandates of the healthcare reform, but the right has done such a great job hijacking the conversations.

Would Reagan as a leader been any better if the opposite were taking place? What if there were a liberal equivalent to the tea party that had such a loud voice?
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:39 AM   #200
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You're right BVS and it's a struggle. The risk of having someone like McCain was too great, so giving Obama the nod was the right way to go.

but there really isn't anyone who would be right to fix this. Reagan would not have as well, considering he really started this whole joining up with Wall Street crap anyway (or at least was a lot more visible considering who he put on his staff).

I'm not sure we could find anyone who would be the liberal tea party. You'd have tea party who are against taxes, versus the liberal party who would be for 100% taxes. I just don't think you could find anyone towards that spectrum, or the financing to go with it.

Just imagine if the Left were as organized, and committed to getting things done as the Right. Obama may have gotten his policies past the first two years with no problem, but there's always bickering within the Left. Where the right is so afraid of the extreme, they all fall in line despite quite a few disagreeing with the method.

I'm starting to feel that Obama doesn't stand a chance in 2012. We've wiped out our 401k gains that had started to come back. We're in another war with Libya, that seems to be forgotten. We just had one of the most tragic losses of life in Afgan, and who knows how Iraq will be in the next year.

I think this 2012 cycle will be one of the ugliest in American history, and I don't know if Obama can weather it.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:56 AM   #201
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I'm starting to feel that Obama doesn't stand a chance in 2012. We've wiped out our 401k gains that had started to come back. We're in another war with Libya, that seems to be forgotten. We just had one of the most tragic losses of life in Afgan, and who knows how Iraq will be in the next year.

I think this 2012 cycle will be one of the ugliest in American history, and I don't know if Obama can weather it.
It will be interesting to see if unemployment improves or if 401Ks regain anything before the 2012 elections. It's a pretty deep hole for Obama at this point.

I think trotting out getting Bin Laden is just going to look desperate at that point, too.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:04 PM   #202
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No one cares about Bin Laden (that was a short lived time that's already done and gone)-just like they don't care about our single greatest casualty day in Afghanistan. Don't care isn't accurate, I have to believe that people care about those deaths. But what dominated the news? 401k losses. When only 3% of people think that terrorism is our number one concern right now, all of that doesn't seem to matter. Tragically it's war that's out of sight, out of mind Except for the families of those people.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:17 PM   #203
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my god... how do intelligent Americans cope with the Tea Party lunatics trying to trash their country??? the Tea Party is the subject of so much derision and ridicule this side of the pond! i wouldn't be able to cope with the prospect of such people vying for power in my country! seriously! i complain about the leaders here, but it's just nothing in comparison... petrifying!


they're more or less the American version of the Front National, but obviously culturally specific and more tied to idealistic notions of "freedom" rather than notions of what "France" or "French" means.

it's not a perfect comparison, but it's about the only one i can make.

FWIW, they are mocked and ridiculed over here as well, but the difference is they were able to make enough noise in 2010 that more mainstream GOP congresspersons and senators now fear being taken out in the primaries by someone from the Tea Party, so everything has shifted rightward and intransigence -- an esteemed characteristic in the eyes of these people -- is now a virtue.

and that's why we were downgraded.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:21 PM   #204
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Right now taking it over McCain and Palin is minimal solace. I know what you mean but it is.

and what's sad is that Obama's campaign in 2012 is going to be about how scary the alternative is. and, when it comes to pretty much anybody but Romney, they are absolutely right.

it's going to be a replay of Bush in 2004. how depressing.

how much do i blame Obama? i first remind myself of his considerable accomplishments. and if you look at his resume, they are substantial.

but he's been ineffective on the biggest issue -- unemployment -- which is also something he has little power to do much about. and he has to deal with fanatics holding a gun to the head of the country.

would someone else have been better? no idea. i will say that HRC would have galvanized the Right as much as Obama, if not more, and we all know what a disaster McCain/Palin would have been.

we get the government we deserve.
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:00 PM   #205
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they're more or less the American version of the Front National, but obviously culturally specific and more tied to idealistic notions of "freedom" rather than notions of what "France" or "French" means.

it's not a perfect comparison, but it's about the only one i can make.

FWIW, they are mocked and ridiculed over here as well, but the difference is they were able to make enough noise in 2010 that more mainstream GOP congresspersons and senators now fear being taken out in the primaries by someone from the Tea Party, so everything has shifted rightward and intransigence -- an esteemed characteristic in the eyes of these people -- is now a virtue.

and that's why we were downgraded.
i utterly despise the Front National and all they stand for, but Marine Le Pen is incredibly well educated and that is frightening on a whole different level altogether, and i am very very worried for the next French elections - we already had a close shave last time with JM Le Pen although that was a protest vote as the left votes were completely fragmented, and the French population pulled together and made sure the FN didn't get thru in the second round... but the Tea Party are just just stupid brainless clowns! they would be laughed out of town here! as a European i am baffled as to how they have managed to get such a loud voice and be given the time of day in the political arena...

and yeah, re. being downgraded, the whole debacle really jittered the ROW... it's just awful...
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:19 PM   #206
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No one cares about Bin Laden (that was a short lived time that's already done and gone)-just like they don't care about our single greatest casualty day in Afghanistan. Don't care isn't accurate, I have to believe that people care about those deaths. But what dominated the news? 401k losses. When only 3% of people think that terrorism is our number one concern right now, all of that doesn't seem to matter. Tragically it's war that's out of sight, out of mind Except for the families of those people.
I agree.
I was just thinking of what Bush might have done and what might spark a few of the knuckle-dragger minds.
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:31 PM   #207
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Obama has to take his share of the blame. Whatever happened to "the buck stops here"? That's what a leader does.

I voted for the guy but all I can see right now is such a disappointing lack of leadership. Right now I don't feel like he's a leader at all-just a laid back follower who points fingers and blames everyone but himself. Bush, S&P, ________. He is limited in what he can do because of Congress and the whole political mess we are in. But beyond those limits I want him to display at least the leadership qualities that I thought he had when I voted for him.
Could you elaborate on that a little? How might he have better shown leadership with this recent crisis?

Would leadership have been refusing to sign the agreement Congress finally came up with because it didn't have any revenue increases, thereby pushing the country into default? If not, then what should he have done differently? How would you propose he work with people whose sole goal is to ensure that he is not re-elected next year no matter what the cost to the country?
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:40 PM   #208
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but the Tea Party are just just stupid brainless clowns! they would be laughed out of town here! as a European i am baffled as to how they have managed to get such a loud voice and be given the time of day in the political arena...


well, we might think the same thing of the blatant racism of the FN.

understanding some of the nuances of the Tea Party (there are some! at least in their veneration/deification of American history) might be a step beyond what an average European could get, simply due to different histories.

all i'm saying is that there's context and history to understand where the Tea Party comes from, and it might be (understandably) lost on non-Americans. what seems obvious to you is more complex to us, and vice versa.

and in no way is this a defense of the Tea Party!



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the whole debacle really jittered the ROW... it's just awful
a lot of people were talking about Italy being the bigger worry, actually, to the global markets. it's European debt that's just as worrying as American political inefficacy.
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:48 PM   #209
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Would leadership have been refusing to sign the agreement Congress finally came up with because it didn't have any revenue increases, thereby pushing the country into default? If not, then what should he have done differently? How would you propose he work with people whose sole goal is to ensure that he is not re-elected next year no matter what the cost to the country?
I understand that and the position he's in. For me he could start by no more blaming the mess he inherited (which he just did again Monday) and no more arguing over S&P and just accept what they did. Take your share of the blame, voice it, maybe get some new people to work for you to give you advice. Cancel your vacation and get Congress back to work too. Get working on job creation and inspiring some confidence instead of blaming and excuses.
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Old 08-09-2011, 03:28 PM   #210
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well, we might think the same thing of the blatant racism of the FN.
actually maybe the FN is worse in that when a highly educated person, a successful lawyer, is at the helm of such offensive ideologies, then "stupidity" in the intellectual sense isn't so much of an excuse and it is more sinister...

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understanding some of the nuances of the Tea Party (there are some! at least in their veneration/deification of American history) might be a step beyond what an average European could get, simply due to different histories.

all i'm saying is that there's context and history to understand where the Tea Party comes from, and it might be (understandably) lost on non-Americans. what seems obvious to you is more complex to us, and vice versa.
yeah i think it is pretty lost on me lol!!

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a lot of people were talking about Italy being the bigger worry, actually, to the global markets. it's European debt that's just as worrying as American political inefficacy.
definitely, Italy is a huge worry, but i think Spain might be the elephant in the room...

let's face it, the whole world is fucked!
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