So let me get this straight...

[nathan1977]

52 people die as a result of faulty Toyotas, and there's a massive recall.

59 women die as a result of a fast-tracked, loosely-regulated vaccination, and nothing happens?

Huh.

Time for the Truth about Gardasil

In an analysis comparing the vaccine to another for meningitis (Menactra), the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) found that Gardasil was associated with:

•At least twice as many emergency room visit reports (5,021)

•Four times as many death reports (29)

•Seven times as many disabled reports (261)

•Three to six times more fainting reports

As of March 2010, there were more than 17,600 reports of adverse reactions regarding the Gardasil vaccine in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

Among them are 59 deaths, 18 of which were among girls under the age of 17.

HPV vaccine controversy: India's response puts the world to shame

"Women around the globe are tired of feeling they and their families are "guinea pigs" for the pharmaceutical industry. They believe the practice needs to stop here and now."

I don't blame them.

 

[the iron horse]

I'm puzzled why the Toyotas drivers did not simply put the cars into neutral.

You know, change the gears.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What a disgusting thread, it shows a collaboration between religious conservatives and anti-vaccination loons to shut down a life-saving vaccine against HPV.

Posters should investigate who Joseph Mercola is, and look at the National Vaccine Information Centre.

This thread is discredited by those sources and I think it should be locked, FYM shouldn't become a source for harmful medical advice.

 

[Irvine511]

Joseph Mercola, D.O. (born 1954), is an osteopathic physician, health activist, and entrepreneur practicing in Hoffman Estates, Illinois.[1] He is the author of two New York Times bestsellers, The No-Grain Diet (with Alison Rose Levy), and The Great Bird Flu Hoax, together with several other books. Mercola is best known as founder and editor of the alternative-medicine website Mercola.com, where he advocates dietary and lifestyle approaches to health and markets a variety of health-related products. Mercola criticizes many of the practices of mainstream medicine and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), particularly vaccination and the use of prescription drugs and surgery to treat diseases.[2] He is a member of the politically conservative Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, as well as several alternative medicine-related organizations.[3]

Mercola has received two warnings from the FDA for marketing nutritional products in a manner which violated the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.[4][5] A 2006 BusinessWeek editorial criticized Mercola's marketing practices as "relying on slick promotion, clever use of information, and scare tactics."[6]

Religious beliefs

"When symptoms arrive as a result of how poorly you've neglected your body and mind, rather than taking personal responsibility for your own wellness (restoring wholeness) and trusting in the God-given recuperative powers of your body, many seek those who are now only too willing take on this role for you."

Mercola was raised as a Catholic. Later in life he switched to evangelical Christianity, but now calls himself spiritual rather than religious. Mercola was formerly a member of the Christian Medical Society but stopped his membership in 2002. Despite a lack of empirical evidence, he promotes religion and prayer as having health benefits, and focuses strongly on studies[49] that advocate this position.

Mercola hosts the theistic writings and beliefs of other website contributors such as Carol Tuttle[50] but has stopped promoting her in 2005. As with his involvement with Emotional Freedom Technique,[51] his support for these modalities gives such approaches value in his spiritual views, frequently presented on the website.
[edit]

Joseph Mercola - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[nathan1977]

What a disgusting thread, it shows a collaboration between religious conservatives and anti-vaccination loons to shut down a life-saving vaccine against HPV.

India is run by anti-vaccination loons?

This thread is discredited by those sources

Are those the same sources that created national (and apparently overstated) hysteria over H1N1, as we're discussing in another thread?
We blundered over swine flu, admit health chiefs | Mail Online

FYM shouldn't become a source for harmful medical advice

According to the facts (reported by the Washington Examiner by the way, Irvine, not Mercola), the HPV vaccine may itself be harmful. Certainly at least as harmful as the Toyota safety issues.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The claims in your post are taken straight from Mercola's reading of the Washington Examiner article (an op-ed by the way) and they cite the anti-vaccination National Vaccine Information Centre.

This thread shouldn't be.

 

[Irvine511]

(reported by the Washington Examiner by the way, Irvine, not Mercola)

do you know what the Washington Examiner is, nathan?

because i sure do.

 

[Billy Rotten]

The big three car companies face financial troubles and then somehow their biggest competition, a foreign company, suddenly faces great troubles. This is all driven by the billionaires, the owners that control pretty much everything.

 

[PhilsFan]

And don't forget to ignore doctors who advise you to have an abortion for medical reasons, while you're at it. Remember the Tebow!

 

[anitram]

What a disgusting thread, it shows a collaboration between religious conservatives and anti-vaccination loons to shut down a life-saving vaccine against HPV.

 

[deep]

What a disgusting thread,

wow, that is a bit harsh


Why not just post a rebuttal, lots of threads in here, have two opposing opinions both claiming to be correct.


I did do a search yesterday when this thread appeared, and I do not agree with the premises posited.


It seemed the halting of the vaccine in India was more of a reaction to the public concerns, that may have been unwarranted.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

FYM shouldn't become a source for harmful medical advice.

You honestly believe that anyone looks in here for medical advice? I'm not being snarky, that just makes no sense to me.

 

[nathan1977]

do you know what the Washington Examiner is, nathan?

Yes, I do. Make sure you're targeting the right source, is all I'm saying. An individual's interpretation of data and the data itself are two different issues.

And what Deep said.

I'll say it again -- 52 people die from shoddy automobile standards, and there is a national recall. 59 women die from complications arising from a controversial vaccine, and calling attention to it is labelled "disgusting."

Weird.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

"Disgusting" might be hyperbole, but I think the issue is any possible sort of agenda-since many people opposed to HPV vaccines believed that they were just a permission slip for sex for young girls. And any possible conservative political agendas of doctors involved. Of course there's nothing disgusting about calling attention to women dying from it.

 

[BVS]

The data has been presented to you by someone with an OBVIOUS agenda.

Here's the big difference:

The cars that had faulty systems would have failed no matter who was using the car, no matter if it was a man, woman, or crash test dummy.

The vaccine, like ALL medication will react differently with everyone who uses it. Penicillin will save lives, but will also kill others. Would Mercola or you get outraged by the use of penicillin? No. Mercola has an agenda and he chooses to ignore the nature of medicine when it suits him, don't fall into the same line of thinking.

 

[nathan1977]

"Disgusting" might be hyperbole, but I think the issue is any possible sort of agenda-since many people opposed to HPV vaccines believed that they were just a permission slip for sex for young girls. And any possible conservative political agendas of doctors involved.

I see your point. At the same time, in the past year we've seen Big Medicine rise to new levels of prominence. So far we've seen one nationally-declared pandemic that really wasn't, leading to pharmaceutical companies profiting big time from flu shots pushed by the government that may not have been necessary (at least in the quantities produced) in the first place. And now another vaccine that may have been poorly regulated and rushed to market. It's not just conservatives -- or conservative lobbyists -- that have agendas.

Of course there's nothing disgusting about calling attention to women dying from it.

I'd like to think so.

 

[nathan1977]

The data has been presented to you by someone with an OBVIOUS agenda.

Like the pharmaceutical industry doesn't?

The cars that had faulty systems would have failed no matter who was using the car, no matter if it was a man, woman, or crash test dummy.

Not everyone who had a faulty system died. That didn't stop Toyota from doing a massive recall and the President stressing stricter scrutiny on automobile makers and the president of Toyota coming to Washington to apologize personally and vowing stricter regulation, did it?

The vaccine, like ALL medication will react differently with everyone who uses it. Penicillin will save lives, but will also kill others.

So you're saying there's a suitable level of collateral damage?

 

[BVS]

Like the pharmaceutical industry doesn't?

Well of course, but at least there is some protocol and regulation. Mercola just needs a muzzle.

Not everyone who had a faulty system died.

You're missing the point. Everyone who had a faulty system had a faulty system that could have failed at any time. The vaccine is not faulty for all.

So you're saying there's a suitable level of collateral damage?

Is that not the nature of medicine? A heart transplant will work for many, and some it won't. The evidence is not there to truly prove the vaccine was the sole cause for these deaths. We've seen the trouble with faulty science recently where the numbers linking vaccines to autism were "doctored".

 

[nathan1977]

You're missing the point. Everyone who had a faulty system had a faulty system that could have failed at any time. The vaccine is not faulty for all.

The question is, is it faulty for enough. In Toyota's case, as far as the US government was concerned, 50+ was enough.

The evidence is not there to truly prove the vaccine was the sole cause for these deaths.

Okay, so how many women do you think need to die before you'd be comfortable taking the vaccine off the market?

We've seen the trouble with faulty science recently where the numbers linking vaccines to autism were "doctored".

As well as when the word "pandemic" is thrown around too casually.

 

[BVS]

The question is, is it faulty for enough. In Toyota's case, as far as the US government was concerned, 50+ was enough.

You're really not understanding this comparison, you're comparing apples to oranges. Every faulty system had the potential to become a killing faulty system. It's like a poorly designed bridge, if you did the calculations wrong the bridge WILL fail under THESE certain conditions. The bridge will work for everything up until this amount of weight is applied, so it's just a matter of time. Same as the car, the system WILL fail under this certain condition. The vaccine does not work this way, so your comparison is faulty.

Okay, so how many women do you think need to die before you'd be comfortable taking the vaccine off the market?

Well the actual link needs to be spelled out first and foremost. Was the vaccine the root cause? Did this person qualify for the vaccine? Did these women have complications prior to that showed they shouldn't have taken the vaccine. It's not black and white, it's very unfortunate, but your approach doesn't make sense.

 

[nathan1977]

Every faulty system had the potential to become a killing faulty system.

But we're not talking potential deaths; we're talking actual deaths. Enough people died under certain circumstances that a recall was issued for all cars. Have enough women died yet to research what circumstances are leading to these consequences?

Well the actual link needs to be spelled out first and foremost. Was the vaccine the root cause? Did this person qualify for the vaccine? Did these women have complications prior to that showed they shouldn't have taken the vaccine. It's not black and white, it's very unfortunate, but your approach doesn't make sense.

It was actually India's approach -- take the vaccine off the market until further research can be done. The research you proposed is sound, but wouldn't the safe, prudent, humanitarian thing to be to take the vaccine off the market until such research can be completed?

 

[BVS]

But we're not talking potential deaths; we're talking actual deaths. Enough people died under certain circumstances that a recall was issued for all cars. Have enough women died yet to research what circumstances are leading to these consequences?

I'm sorry you're not getting this. I really don't know how else to spell it out. Just because the number of deaths are close in number doesn't make it a valid comparison. We can prove without doubt that the faulty system lead to these people's deaths and that every other faulty system out there has the potential of doing the exact same thing.

We cannot prove the vaccine alone lead to these deaths, or that the potential is there. I'll ask again, should penicillin be removed from modern medicine?

It was actually India's approach -- take the vaccine off the market until further research can be done. The research you proposed is sound, but wouldn't the safe, prudent, humanitarian thing to be to take the vaccine off the market until such research can be completed?

India is wrong. Medicine has never been about absolutes, but a part of medicine is about probabilites, what out there is 100% effective or without harm? Do you take the vaccine off the market only to find out these women were not elgible for the vaccine, or that the vaccine was not the leading cause to their death, or that it wasn't administrated properly?

 

[nathan1977]

We can prove without doubt that the faulty system lead to these people's deaths

Unless you're Toyota. In which case you knew there was a danger already but you refused to admit it until people started dying, and even then you tried to explain it away.

should penicillin be removed from modern medicine?

Penicillin was tested for 14 years before it was introduced to the market. (First cure recorded in 1930; wasn't mass-produced in the States until 1944.) Was penicillin poorly-regulated and rushed to market?

India is wrong.

Isn't the fundamental element of the Hippocratic Oath "Do no harm"? Since when is concern for public safety "wrong"?

 

[BVS]

Penicillin was tested for 14 years before it was introduced to the market. (First cure recorded in 1930; wasn't mass-produced in the States until 1944.) Was penicillin poorly-regulated and rushed to market?

But penicillin will still cause death in some regulation or not, there is just no way around that. We don't come out of womb knowing we're allergic to it.

So why do you believe this vaccine is poorly regulated?

Isn't the fundamental element of the Hippocratic Oath "Do no harm"?

Do you not believe that Medicine comes with risks?

Since when is concern for public safety "wrong"?

I didn't say it was, but don't you think it's reactionary to reply to weak linkage with zero tolerance? Hasn't it proved to save and be good more than proving to kill?

 

[nathan1977]

So why do you believe this vaccine is poorly regulated?

The well-documented lax regulatory standards of the US FDA over the past eight years.

The H1N1 screw-up.

The increased lobbying by Big Pharmacy to relax those standards. Given the fact that Merck produces this vaccine, and mass-produced Vioxx, aren't we right to be distrusting?

And reality: "As of March 2010, there were more than 17,600 reports of adverse reactions regarding the Gardasil vaccine in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. Among them are 59 deaths, 18 of which were among girls under the age of 17."

Do you not believe that Medicine comes with risks?

Naturally. But I sure don't believe that women should be guinea pigs.

Originally Posted by nathan1977
Since when is concern for public safety "wrong"?

I didn't say it was

In response to India pulling the vaccine over concerns about public safety, you said

India is wrong.

but don't you think it's reactionary to reply to weak linkage with zero tolerance? Hasn't it proved to save and be good more than proving to kill?

You mean besides the women it already may have killed?

Women shouldn't die from getting vaccinated.

Period.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I'm sorry you're not getting this. I really don't know how else to spell it out. Just because the number of deaths are close in number doesn't make it a valid comparison. We can prove without doubt that the faulty system lead to these people's deaths and that every other faulty system out there has the potential of doing the exact same thing.

We cannot prove the vaccine alone lead to these deaths, or that the potential is there. I'll ask again, should penicillin be removed from modern medicine?

You could say a car of the same make is a very homogeneous product where the same input has a great probability of causing the same effect, whereas the human body is an extremely heterogeneous product.

 

[BVS]

Good point...

 

[A_Wanderer]

As of March 2010, there were more than 17,600 reports of adverse reactions regarding the Gardasil vaccine in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. Among them are 59 deaths, 18 of which were among girls under the age of 17

This correlation does not imply causation, and you cling to this claim without any context (i.e. number of vaccinations and the background death rate expected by chance).

 

[BVS]

You mean besides the women it already may have killed?

Women shouldn't die from getting vaccinated.

Period.

Your evidence has been anecdotal and hearsay, I like facts not agenda driven linkage.

 

[nathan1977]

This correlation does not imply causation, and you cling to this claim without any context (i.e. number of vaccinations and the background death rate expected by chance).

Sounds good. I'll go ask the people who have died if they would have died had they not taken the vaccine.