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Old 04-19-2010, 10:59 AM   #16
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"Disgusting" might be hyperbole, but I think the issue is any possible sort of agenda-since many people opposed to HPV vaccines believed that they were just a permission slip for sex for young girls. And any possible conservative political agendas of doctors involved.
I see your point. At the same time, in the past year we've seen Big Medicine rise to new levels of prominence. So far we've seen one nationally-declared pandemic that really wasn't, leading to pharmaceutical companies profiting big time from flu shots pushed by the government that may not have been necessary (at least in the quantities produced) in the first place. And now another vaccine that may have been poorly regulated and rushed to market. It's not just conservatives -- or conservative lobbyists -- that have agendas.

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Of course there's nothing disgusting about calling attention to women dying from it.
I'd like to think so.
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:03 AM   #17
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The data has been presented to you by someone with an OBVIOUS agenda.
Like the pharmaceutical industry doesn't?

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The cars that had faulty systems would have failed no matter who was using the car, no matter if it was a man, woman, or crash test dummy.
Not everyone who had a faulty system died. That didn't stop Toyota from doing a massive recall and the President stressing stricter scrutiny on automobile makers and the president of Toyota coming to Washington to apologize personally and vowing stricter regulation, did it?

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The vaccine, like ALL medication will react differently with everyone who uses it. Penicillin will save lives, but will also kill others.
So you're saying there's a suitable level of collateral damage?
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:16 AM   #18
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Like the pharmaceutical industry doesn't?
Well of course, but at least there is some protocol and regulation. Mercola just needs a muzzle.


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Not everyone who had a faulty system died.
You're missing the point. Everyone who had a faulty system had a faulty system that could have failed at any time. The vaccine is not faulty for all.


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So you're saying there's a suitable level of collateral damage?
Is that not the nature of medicine? A heart transplant will work for many, and some it won't. The evidence is not there to truly prove the vaccine was the sole cause for these deaths. We've seen the trouble with faulty science recently where the numbers linking vaccines to autism were "doctored".
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:41 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
You're missing the point. Everyone who had a faulty system had a faulty system that could have failed at any time. The vaccine is not faulty for all.
The question is, is it faulty for enough. In Toyota's case, as far as the US government was concerned, 50+ was enough.

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The evidence is not there to truly prove the vaccine was the sole cause for these deaths.
Okay, so how many women do you think need to die before you'd be comfortable taking the vaccine off the market?

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We've seen the trouble with faulty science recently where the numbers linking vaccines to autism were "doctored".
As well as when the word "pandemic" is thrown around too casually.
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Old 04-19-2010, 12:49 PM   #20
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The question is, is it faulty for enough. In Toyota's case, as far as the US government was concerned, 50+ was enough.
You're really not understanding this comparison, you're comparing apples to oranges. Every faulty system had the potential to become a killing faulty system. It's like a poorly designed bridge, if you did the calculations wrong the bridge WILL fail under THESE certain conditions. The bridge will work for everything up until this amount of weight is applied, so it's just a matter of time. Same as the car, the system WILL fail under this certain condition. The vaccine does not work this way, so your comparison is faulty.

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Okay, so how many women do you think need to die before you'd be comfortable taking the vaccine off the market?
Well the actual link needs to be spelled out first and foremost. Was the vaccine the root cause? Did this person qualify for the vaccine? Did these women have complications prior to that showed they shouldn't have taken the vaccine. It's not black and white, it's very unfortunate, but your approach doesn't make sense.
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Old 04-19-2010, 01:05 PM   #21
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Every faulty system had the potential to become a killing faulty system.
But we're not talking potential deaths; we're talking actual deaths. Enough people died under certain circumstances that a recall was issued for all cars. Have enough women died yet to research what circumstances are leading to these consequences?

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Well the actual link needs to be spelled out first and foremost. Was the vaccine the root cause? Did this person qualify for the vaccine? Did these women have complications prior to that showed they shouldn't have taken the vaccine. It's not black and white, it's very unfortunate, but your approach doesn't make sense.
It was actually India's approach -- take the vaccine off the market until further research can be done. The research you proposed is sound, but wouldn't the safe, prudent, humanitarian thing to be to take the vaccine off the market until such research can be completed?
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Old 04-19-2010, 01:30 PM   #22
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But we're not talking potential deaths; we're talking actual deaths. Enough people died under certain circumstances that a recall was issued for all cars. Have enough women died yet to research what circumstances are leading to these consequences?
I'm sorry you're not getting this. I really don't know how else to spell it out. Just because the number of deaths are close in number doesn't make it a valid comparison. We can prove without doubt that the faulty system lead to these people's deaths and that every other faulty system out there has the potential of doing the exact same thing.

We cannot prove the vaccine alone lead to these deaths, or that the potential is there. I'll ask again, should penicillin be removed from modern medicine?


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It was actually India's approach -- take the vaccine off the market until further research can be done. The research you proposed is sound, but wouldn't the safe, prudent, humanitarian thing to be to take the vaccine off the market until such research can be completed?
India is wrong. Medicine has never been about absolutes, but a part of medicine is about probabilites, what out there is 100% effective or without harm? Do you take the vaccine off the market only to find out these women were not elgible for the vaccine, or that the vaccine was not the leading cause to their death, or that it wasn't administrated properly?
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Old 04-19-2010, 01:47 PM   #23
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We can prove without doubt that the faulty system lead to these people's deaths
Unless you're Toyota. In which case you knew there was a danger already but you refused to admit it until people started dying, and even then you tried to explain it away.

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should penicillin be removed from modern medicine?
Penicillin was tested for 14 years before it was introduced to the market. (First cure recorded in 1930; wasn't mass-produced in the States until 1944.) Was penicillin poorly-regulated and rushed to market?

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India is wrong.
Isn't the fundamental element of the Hippocratic Oath "Do no harm"? Since when is concern for public safety "wrong"?
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Old 04-19-2010, 02:12 PM   #24
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Penicillin was tested for 14 years before it was introduced to the market. (First cure recorded in 1930; wasn't mass-produced in the States until 1944.) Was penicillin poorly-regulated and rushed to market?
But penicillin will still cause death in some regulation or not, there is just no way around that. We don't come out of womb knowing we're allergic to it.

So why do you believe this vaccine is poorly regulated?


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Isn't the fundamental element of the Hippocratic Oath "Do no harm"?
Do you not believe that Medicine comes with risks?


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Since when is concern for public safety "wrong"?
I didn't say it was, but don't you think it's reactionary to reply to weak linkage with zero tolerance? Hasn't it proved to save and be good more than proving to kill?
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:25 PM   #25
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So why do you believe this vaccine is poorly regulated?
The well-documented lax regulatory standards of the US FDA over the past eight years.

The H1N1 screw-up.

The increased lobbying by Big Pharmacy to relax those standards. Given the fact that Merck produces this vaccine, and mass-produced Vioxx, aren't we right to be distrusting?

And reality: "As of March 2010, there were more than 17,600 reports of adverse reactions regarding the Gardasil vaccine in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. Among them are 59 deaths, 18 of which were among girls under the age of 17."

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Do you not believe that Medicine comes with risks?
Naturally. But I sure don't believe that women should be guinea pigs.

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Since when is concern for public safety "wrong"?
I didn't say it was
In response to India pulling the vaccine over concerns about public safety, you said

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India is wrong.
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but don't you think it's reactionary to reply to weak linkage with zero tolerance? Hasn't it proved to save and be good more than proving to kill?
You mean besides the women it already may have killed?

Women shouldn't die from getting vaccinated.

Period.
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I'm sorry you're not getting this. I really don't know how else to spell it out. Just because the number of deaths are close in number doesn't make it a valid comparison. We can prove without doubt that the faulty system lead to these people's deaths and that every other faulty system out there has the potential of doing the exact same thing.

We cannot prove the vaccine alone lead to these deaths, or that the potential is there. I'll ask again, should penicillin be removed from modern medicine?
You could say a car of the same make is a very homogeneous product where the same input has a great probability of causing the same effect, whereas the human body is an extremely heterogeneous product.
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:56 PM   #27
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Good point...
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:49 PM   #28
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As of March 2010, there were more than 17,600 reports of adverse reactions regarding the Gardasil vaccine in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. Among them are 59 deaths, 18 of which were among girls under the age of 17
This correlation does not imply causation, and you cling to this claim without any context (i.e. number of vaccinations and the background death rate expected by chance).
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Old 04-19-2010, 06:41 PM   #29
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You mean besides the women it already may have killed?

Women shouldn't die from getting vaccinated.

Period.
Your evidence has been anecdotal and hearsay, I like facts not agenda driven linkage.
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Old 04-19-2010, 06:47 PM   #30
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This correlation does not imply causation, and you cling to this claim without any context (i.e. number of vaccinations and the background death rate expected by chance).
Sounds good. I'll go ask the people who have died if they would have died had they not taken the vaccine.

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