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Old 10-26-2010, 08:58 PM   #1
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Smarten up America!

According to most polls, we are about one week away from disaster. Disaster? Yes, this is what will happen if voters turn Congress back over to the radcons simply because they are voting on emotion. Yes, I understand that things have been much worse than hoped under Obama. But here is the thing; Overwhelmingly conservative economic policies that have controlled our economy for 30 years are the main cause of the financial crises! I will say it again - 30 years! So now, just because the dems can’t undo the mess the radcons made in 1 ½ years we want to turn our country back over to the radcons who got us in it? Are you serious?! Republicans are at least 70%, and probably 80-90%, responsible for the crash. You do not have to look very hard to see this. The lack of regulation in our financial system, as championed by conservatives, allowed the banks to create these toxic mortgages that then poisoned the whole economy. Yes, the details of what happened are complicated but how can you argue that this is in effect what happened? Yet republicans still try..They go on about how it was lack of personal responsibility and people spending beyond their means and too much government that put us in this mess and then that 1 ½ years of Obama are what deepened the crises. Yes, personal responsibility is a factor and that is why I stopped short of saying that all the blame lay with conservatives. But ask yourself this, if it WASN’T conservative policies that got us in this mess, then why is it that countries who DID NOT have these policies (like Canada) managed to fair much better? I would love for a conservative to explain this to me.

Regarding what Obama has done, people are simply failing to see that things (job losses, etc) were in free fall when he took office. It was like you had a mac truck sliding down an icy mountain! You simply can not turn that kind of momentum around quickly! And given the 30 years we spent getting in this mess, 1 ½ - 2 years is unrealistic to expect a turn around. If Obama is guilty of anything, it is not going far enough with progressive policies; see: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/25/opinion/25krugman.html?_r=2&src=me&ref=general
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:05 PM   #2
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Blah blah blah.



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Old 10-26-2010, 09:10 PM   #3
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:24 PM   #4
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I wish. I could explain it. But, I have nothing new to add. There are so many reasons why the economy is the way it is.

I'm doing okay. Still employed part time by my choice. My modest home is payed for. I have always lived according to my means. I guess. I am middle of the road. An Independent voter.
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:43 PM   #5
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[QUOTE=pcfitz80;7010569]According to most polls, we are about one week away from disaster. Disaster? Yes, this is what will happen if voters turn Congress back over to the radcons simply because they are voting on emotion. Yes, I understand that things have been much worse than hoped under Obama. But here is the thing; Overwhelmingly conservative economic policies that have controlled our economy for 30 years are the main cause of the financial crises! I will say it again - 30 years! So now, just because the dems can’t undo the mess the radcons made in 1 ½ years we want to turn our country back over to the radcons who got us in it? Are you serious?! Republicans are at least 70%, and probably 80-90%, responsible for the crash. You do not have to look very hard to see this. The lack of regulation in our financial system, as championed by conservatives, allowed the banks to create these toxic mortgages that then poisoned the whole economy. Yes, the details of what happened are complicated but how can you argue that this is in effect what happened? Yet republicans still try..They go on about how it was lack of personal responsibility and people spending beyond their means and too much government that put us in this mess and then that 1 ½ years of Obama are what deepened the crises. Yes, personal responsibility is a factor and that is why I stopped short of saying that all the blame lay with conservatives. But ask yourself this, if it WASN’T conservative policies that got us in this mess, then why is it that countries who DID NOT have these policies (like Canada) managed to fair much better? I would love for a conservative to explain this to me.


I would love for you to explain why Canadian health care is such a model of perfection?

As far as conservatives controlling U.S. policies the past thirty years.
I disagree. The Rebublicans have not acted or voted like conservatives for about that long.

It's been big goverment can do all since Reagan left office.



Where is a Barry Goldwater when we need him!


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Old 10-26-2010, 10:29 PM   #6
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[QUOTE=the iron horse;7010618]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfitz80 View Post
According to most polls, we are about one week away from disaster. Disaster? Yes, this is what will happen if voters turn Congress back over to the radcons simply because they are voting on emotion. Yes, I understand that things have been much worse than hoped under Obama. But here is the thing; Overwhelmingly conservative economic policies that have controlled our economy for 30 years are the main cause of the financial crises! I will say it again - 30 years! So now, just because the dems can’t undo the mess the radcons made in 1 ½ years we want to turn our country back over to the radcons who got us in it? Are you serious?! Republicans are at least 70%, and probably 80-90%, responsible for the crash. You do not have to look very hard to see this. The lack of regulation in our financial system, as championed by conservatives, allowed the banks to create these toxic mortgages that then poisoned the whole economy. Yes, the details of what happened are complicated but how can you argue that this is in effect what happened? Yet republicans still try..They go on about how it was lack of personal responsibility and people spending beyond their means and too much government that put us in this mess and then that 1 ½ years of Obama are what deepened the crises. Yes, personal responsibility is a factor and that is why I stopped short of saying that all the blame lay with conservatives. But ask yourself this, if it WASN’T conservative policies that got us in this mess, then why is it that countries who DID NOT have these policies (like Canada) managed to fair much better? I would love for a conservative to explain this to me.


I would love for you to explain why Canadian health care is such a model of perfection?

As far as conservatives controlling U.S. policies the past thirty years.
I disagree. The Rebublicans have not acted or voted like conservatives for about that long.

It's been big goverment can do all since Reagan left office.



Where is a Barry Goldwater when we need him!


My Libertarian 2 Cents
I never said Canadian health Care was perfect - it has its pluses and minuses. Compared to U.S. health care? I think its better but its not perfect. Most people get what they need from it and you don't have people loosing their life savings / declaring bankruptcy because of a health problem. And Yes, today's conservatives are not like they were back when Barry Goldwater was in politics - They are worse. At least we agree on that. But they are the ones who championed the financial system that got us into this mess. Everything under Reagan and G.W. Bush was deregulate, deregulate and let the market do its thing (remember Reagan? government is not the solulution, government is the problem)..Look how that worked out! stricter enforcement of banking in Canada kept things from being as bad here (in Canada)
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Old 10-27-2010, 02:36 AM   #7
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There are numerous people to blame on all levels for the crap we've been going through the past few years. Ignorant citizens who cared more about extravagance and keeping up with the Joneses than being responsible, politicians (in both parties, neither one's innocent saints here) who cared more about keeping their buddies rich or appeasing certain people than fighting for responsible control and regulation, companies that were allowed to find loopholes to scam people, the list goes on and on.

But I certainly do agree that voting back in the Republican Party next week will not solve a thing, and will only keep us on a stagnant track, if not drive us right back down into the hole. I'm continually amazed at how many people are flocking to that party thinking they're going to be the much needed help to "turn this country around". Smarten up, indeed.

Angela
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:29 AM   #8
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Dumbasses will always continue to praise the Reagan-era White House as a model of conservatism, while ex-Reagan era financial officials continue to mention that fiscal policies from that administration are a large contributing factor to our current economic situation.

People have short memories.

Country's going down in flames.

Republicans will get control of the legislative branch back, keep things even more gridlocked until 2014, at which point the 2nd Obama presidency will be shot as well.

Wonder who's going to run for both parties in 2016?
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfitz80 View Post
The lack of regulation in our financial system, as championed by conservatives, allowed the banks to create these toxic mortgages that then poisoned the whole economy. Yes, the details of what happened are complicated but how can you argue that this is in effect what happened? Yet republicans still try..They go on about how it was lack of personal responsibility and people spending beyond their means and too much government that put us in this mess and then that 1 ½ years of Obama are what deepened the crises. Yes, personal responsibility is a factor and that is why I stopped short of saying that all the blame lay with conservatives. But ask yourself this, if it WASN’T conservative policies that got us in this mess, then why is it that countries who DID NOT have these policies (like Canada) managed to fair much better? I would love for a conservative to explain this to me.
It may be largely a matter of phraseology, but this paragraph cuts to the core of the gripe I have with your posts. You talk of deregulation and lax regulation of banks as "conservative" policies, but I don't consider them as such. "Neo-liberal" is actually what they are generally labelled in the Western European (especially French) media.

I would grant you that these policies were largely, but by no means exclusively, advocated by persons operating under the "conservative" banner, but even at that you're ignoring the fact that liberal politicians in the US were at the forefront in pushing banks to lend more money to borrowers on low incomes and with poor credit histories and, for example, the UK, which had a bubble as bad as the US, was governed by Labour from 1997 to 2010.
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
As far as conservatives controlling U.S. policies the past thirty years.
I disagree. The Rebublicans have not acted or voted like conservatives for about that long.
Agree completely.
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:12 PM   #11
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I would love for you to explain why Canadian health care is such a model of perfection?
Honestly those who idealize it are mistaken.

It's a decent system, and it comes from the standpoint that for the most part I think Canadians believe that health case for a country's citizens is a basic human right, not something that should be tied to being privileged enough to work at a job with a health plan.

It's an imperfect system, it has waste and a lack of resources in some cases, but I think overall the incentive is to be more efficient than U.S. hospitals are because the state is accountable to the citizens for it.

Quote:
As far as conservatives controlling U.S. policies the past thirty years.
I disagree. The Rebublicans have not acted or voted like conservatives for about that long.
Completely agree with you here
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:52 PM   #12
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It may be largely a matter of phraseology, but this paragraph cuts to the core of the gripe I have with your posts. You talk of deregulation and lax regulation of banks as "conservative" policies, but I don't consider them as such. "Neo-liberal" is actually what they are generally labelled in the Western European (especially French) media.

I would grant you that these policies were largely, but by no means exclusively, advocated by persons operating under the "conservative" banner, but even at that you're ignoring the fact that liberal politicians in the US were at the forefront in pushing banks to lend more money to borrowers on low incomes and with poor credit histories and, for example, the UK, which had a bubble as bad as the US, was governed by Labour from 1997 to 2010.

What I'm saying in a lot of my posts is indeed, as you say, that these bad policies get advocated by people operating under the conservative banner even though it may not be the type of conservatism you believe in. Fine. I think you guys are may be missing my point. WHATEVER it is (conservatism, Neoconservatism or whatever), and we can put semantics aside, it is bad! I"m talking about the Newt Gingrich's, the G.W. Bush's, etc...the recent and present day republican's going back to about 1980. You can call it whatever you want. I still call it conservatism, but yes, technically it is neoconservatism. Problem is, as I have said in my other thread, they have managed to sucker in a lot of reasonable conservatives and right leaning centrists like yourself and THAT is the big problem and what looks to be on tap for next Tuesday if America doesn't smarten up!
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:00 PM   #13
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pcfitz, one of the things we left-wingers have to cling to is that there is a larrrrrrrge variety of opinions in the Democratic Party.

The modern Republican party, for the most part, is a black or white, with us or against us, inflexible, unmovable, stubborn object, slowly rotting from the inside out.

Liberal, progressive outlooks on the world can be varied, can be flexible, can be reasonable. The current Republican party does not allow for anything like this, and that's why they are able to mobilize their base of old, scared white people and their ignorant college-age kids.

Please don't stoop to their levels. Just chill out, cast your ballot, go home, light up a fatty, and watch the country burn for a few more years until we slowly move out of this age of stupidity.
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:05 AM   #14
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The current Republican party does not allow for anything like this, and that's why they are able to mobilize their base of old, scared white people and their ignorant college-age kids.
I just started wondering about something.

Let's say that you called these old GOP supporters "scared white people" and their college-age kids "ignorant".

What would their response to you be?
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Old 10-28-2010, 02:17 AM   #15
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pcfitz, one of the things we left-wingers have to cling to is that there is a large variety of opinions in the Democratic Party.

The modern Republican party, for the most part, is a black or white, with us or against us, inflexible, unmovable, stubborn object, slowly rotting from the inside out.

Please don't stoop to their levels. Just chill out, cast your ballot, go home, light up a fatty, and watch the country burn for a few more years until we slowly move out of this age of stupidity.
Back in the 60's JFK/LBJ Deomcrats had about a 68 Senate majority. Now with the variety it went from very conservative dems to the most liberal and others inbtween.

While esp Southern Conservative Democrats didn't vote for a lot of things proposed by JFK/LBJ- center to liberal Demscould count on Moderate to Liberal Republicans to vote with them on a bunch of legislation.

Now President Obama has 57? Dems of which the Blue Dogs, Joe (turncoat), Lieberman votes with the Republicans. Now there are hardly any Moderate, let alone (heh) Liberal Republicans left. And they have been too threatened to usually vote they way they might have once!

Canadiens you can sound pretty sanguine to pcfitz, but you're up there and we're down here.

Besides the the lower and middle Middle Class who have been hit hard by this recession, the working class, the working poor and the disabled....these are the peoplepreviously who've suffered more along until they were then joined by the Middle Class -- will be hit more immediately dpending on what a Reupublican- controlled House can do. President Obama may have to do alot of veoting if the Republican stuff also passes the Senate.

They can derail what ever next efforts President Obama wants to chnage or add onto things he's already done. Already one Representive says he will instigate "Impeachment" charges against the President right away. So that circus will begin!

My different work lives has had me meet people, and become friends with the various classes and ( I'm white/2nd gen Southern-Eastern European ancestary) diferent racial & ethnic groups, and include disable people as well. I can tell you many of them (those not voting against their own self-intersts like a lot of working class white people are)are definatley scared what might happen if the Republicans get control again. I am as well.
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