SlutWalks

[kafrun]

I could see the line of thinking that non-violent rape (i.e., date rape, for instance) could be seen as being more sexual than pure power/violence, although that's not to say it couldn't also be about both, if the man's enough of a jerkhole to keep going even though the woman says "stop."

(Ha, cross-posted with Irvine.)

Date rape may be a different issue.. or maybe not. I'm not entirely convinced one way or the other.

I agree with this. But I would add that they get sexual gratification from the degradation

Yes, so the sexual gratification is from the degradation, not the external appearance.

 

[corianderstem]

Date rape may be a different issue.. or maybe not. I'm not entirely convinced one way or the other.

I hear you.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Yes, so the sexual gratification is from the degradation, not the external appearance.

Yes, we agree. But all dirtbags are not created equal

 

[mama cass]

i definitely think it helps to be street smart, although sadly that's not always enough...

i swear it's got me out of one or two sticky situations though... when i've been out and about on my own at night, i always walk really purposefully, head up, keeping an eye on what's going on around me... sounds silly but if i get worried, i get my mobile out and phone someone, talking while i'm walking, or even just pretend to be talking to someone if necessary lol

when i was a student i spent some time abroad working on a campsite, and one night i finished my shift late, at about midnight, legged it back across the campsite to my caravan, and then a few minutes later there was a knock at the door - two big intimidating looking guys claiming to be security guards and saying they wanted to come in and talk to me - i'd only been on the job a week, but didn't recognise them and felt a bit scared tbh, there was something about them, like they were wired up, electric, quite menacing, stony eyes, and i felt incredibly uncomfortable and quickly said "i'm sorry can't talk my husband's asleep bye" (i was actually alone, but it's the first thing that came into my head as there was no way i was going to let them in but didnt want them to know i was alone) and closed the door and locked it - heart was pounding and i didn't sleep that night, and then the next morning i went to start my shift, and the cops were at the reception when i arrived and it turned out a woman (a camper) had been raped on the site that night - i gave a description of the guys and everything, but jeesus it was horrible... was shaken up for a while after that with all the what ifs...

that incident had nothing to do with what anyone was wearing (i was in fugly baggy dungarees, a marcel marceau stripey top and doc marten boots fwiw - the epitomy of unsexy) - they were just opportunistic nasty people

 

[yolland]

in the example above, i totally agree.

however, are there different motivations for rape? is all rape motivated solely by power? are there other motivations?

this is not to delve into horrid, Republican discussions about "forcible" rape (and abortion funding) and whatnot -- i think we all agree that rape is unwanted sexual intercourse. what i am curious about are the motivations that lead one to rape. i have to think that it has to be more complex for some than just "power" alone.

Maybe some will disagree with this, but I tend to think most women find the whole concept of sexualized aggression very, very difficult to relate to and therefore to understand. I don't know why that should be really, since in role-playing (S/M) and/or fantasy scenarios many women do have and enjoy those kinds of feelings, i.e. dominating someone who's "asking for it," but in any even remotely possibly non-consensual scenario...the idea that that could ever be arousing, I think that's just extremely difficult for almost any woman to relate to. I don't think that's the main reason for whatever gender gap exists on questions like whether it's "good" safety advice not to "dress like a slut" in certain situations, but it does exacerbate the disconnect. It's also part of why any comment that smacks of the thinking that rape, groping, sexual harassment etc. are a straightforward result of intense sexual desire (just like you experience, ladies! only waaayy stronger!) tends to make women's blood boil.

I suppose, following up on what Lies said earlier about "susceptibility to tactless men cat-calling you," that I can somewhat see a non-offensive recommendation to dress modestly for safety reasons built on the premise of, Don't hand excuses to the kind of man who's already looking to make them for why you "asked for" sexual harassment or even assault. But especially when violation on the order of rape, i.e. "sex" against your will is the offense in question, that "safety advice" feels like such a kick in the head. Because the reality, and every woman knows it, is that the threat will always be there no matter how you present yourself. Like kafrun and mama cass, I've had the experience of being jumped "with only one thing in mind," and though I did manage to fight off the man, whom I didn't know (not without getting bones broken, I've told this story in here before), that brought home to me that at the end of the day there's absolutely nothing I can do to avoid being just a slut just a bitch just a whore WTF-ever the enabling conceit is in some man or another's eyes. It's that that feels debasing, not whether or not there might be some perception of sexiness mixed in there. And if anyone were to have asked at the time...I was wearing baggy jeans and an oversize sweatshirt, and BTW fuck you for even asking, you know? Any curiosity about that would've felt voyeuristic and humiliating all by itself.

 

[Liesje]

Street smarts would imply that what you need comes from inside, not your choice of clothing. Sociopaths zero in on weakness and vulnerability. They are frighteningly gifted at this. I'd venture to say that a perpetrator would go after the conservatively dressed woman who keeps her head down or is otherwise distracted over a sensually dressed woman with her head up, who walks with a purpose.

This times a million

 

[Bono's shades]

^ Thanks, Irvine. I was trying to think of a tactful way to put that. And it's not that I'm taking one side or another, just putting the idea out there. My example was that a good friend of mine left her gucci purse on the front seat of her car overnight. The car was parked on the road and when she returned to it the next morning, the window had been smashed and her purse was gone. My immediate reaction was "well, you were stupid to leave your purse in the car, in full view of anyone passing by." I don't think that was an unreasonable response. Would you agree?

No. If you really did say that out loud to your friend (I'm not clear if it is something you said to her, or if that was just your unspoken thought), I hope she called you out on it. Personally, I don't think friends should self-righteously lecture friends when they are already feeling down, especially since she's probably already blaming herself for leaving her purse in the car.

 

[BAW]

All of the above - rape, sexual assualt, harassment. The point is always to degrade the victim, imo.

Referring to my point above in replying to Nathan, we should absolutely all learn street-smarts to avoid being victims. Street smarts would imply that what you need comes from inside, not your choice of clothing. Sociopaths zero in on weakness and vulnerability. They are frighteningly gifted at this. I'd venture to say that a perpetrator would go after the conservatively dressed woman who keeps her head down or is otherwise distracted over a sensually dressed woman with her head up, who walks with a purpose.

Late to this discussion but I had to respond to this. I think you have absolutely touched on something here. When I was 18, I was followed from my apartment to a liquor store (on foot) and even though I knew he was there, I was too timid to either change my course or turn around and go back home. I know for a fact I looked scared and instead of taking on a more confident posture and letting him I know I was aware of his presence, I kept my head lowered and walked faster.

It was broad daylight and I thought I would be okay once I got to the liquor store so once I got there, I went to the payphone to make a phone call and didn't realize he was right behind me. I just heard his voice calling me "little slut" and "whore" and then felt his hand reach between my legs from behind. I was groped repeatedly and he pressed against me from behind, calling me names the entire time. And all I did was cry, I was too scared to even push him away. The only reason he stopped was because someone saw him and yelled. And then he just walked away casually, like nothing had happened.

I guess I should add that far from being dressed to attract attention, I was 8 months pregnant and wearing maternity jeans and a huge, long sleeved blouse. But I was the perfect, passive looking potential victim and he keyed right in on that. Who knows, had I shown some street smarts and been a little more confident, he may have left me alone. It was obvious his intention was humiliation and power and a more assertive woman wouldn't have fit his profile for a victim.

And although this is the most extreme example, this isn't the only incident that I experienced in my teens and early 20's. I spent an awful lot of time trying to blend into the background and not be noticed, but was constantly cat-called and harassed, and I fully believe it was passivity and vulnerability that made me a target. I know that might come across as blaming the victim but I don't know how else to express it.

 

[Bono's shades]

Late to this discussion but I had to respond to this. I think you have absolutely touched on something here. When I was 18, I was followed from my apartment to a liquor store (on foot) and even though I knew he was there, I was too timid to either change my course or turn around and go back home. I know for a fact I looked scared and instead of taking on a more confident posture and letting him I know I was aware of his presence, I kept my head lowered and walked faster.

It was broad daylight and I thought I would be okay once I got to the liquor store so once I got there, I went to the payphone to make a phone call and didn't realize he was right behind me. I just heard his voice calling me "little slut" and "whore" and then felt his hand reach between my legs from behind. I was groped repeatedly and he pressed against me from behind, calling me names the entire time. And all I did was cry, I was too scared to even push him away. The only reason he stopped was because someone saw him and yelled. And then he just walked away casually, like nothing had happened.

I guess I should add that far from being dressed to attract attention, I was 8 months pregnant and wearing maternity jeans and a huge, long sleeved blouse. But I was the perfect, passive looking potential victim and he keyed right in on that. Who knows, had I shown some street smarts and been a little more confident, he may have left me alone. It was obvious his intention was humiliation and power and a more assertive woman wouldn't have fit his profile for a victim.

And although this is the most extreme example, this isn't the only incident that I experienced in my teens and early 20's. I spent an awful lot of time trying to blend into the background and not be noticed, but was constantly cat-called and harassed, and I fully believe it was passivity and vulnerability that made me a target. I know that might come across as blaming the victim but I don't know how else to express it.

I don't think you are to blame. The only reason you were assaulted is because you were unlucky enough to be in the presence of someone who choses to sexually assault women.

 

[Jive Turkey]

No. If you really did say that out loud to your friend (I'm not clear if it is something you said to her, or if that was just your unspoken thought), I hope she called you out on it. Personally, I don't think friends should self-righteously lecture friends when they are already feeling down, especially since she's probably already blaming herself for leaving her purse in the car.

Self righteous? First of all, you don't know what sort of relationship I have with my friend, nor do you know the tone I would have used when I said it, so you're in no position to make that sort of judgement about me

 

[corianderstem]

BAW, that's awful, I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

But that brings to mind another "you should have" or "why didn't you" that you hear in these situations. There are some people who might ask "Why didn't you scream? Why didn't you shout for help?" Or in a rape/date rape situation, someone might say "Well, didn't you keep fighting back? Did you keep yelling 'no'?"

Everyone reacts to being assaulted differently. Some people might be too frightened of being hurt. Some people might feel paralyzed. And for many people, while you might talk a good game about what you would do if it happened to you, you might react completely differently.

It's still assault or rape even if the woman isn't calling for help or fighting and screaming.

 

[ryancoke71]

Amazing in these situations, how the individual was dressed wasn't revealing.

Sorry to those that have been personally affected. It is a horrible thing to have to go through. I admire those that have the strength to tell their stories.

 

[BAW]

I don't think you are to blame. The only reason you were assaulted is because you were unlucky enough to be in the presence of someone who choses to sexually assault women.

Thank you The logical part of my brain realizes that but even 26 years later, I still question whether my lack of assertiveness played a role somehow. I couldn't blame it on the way I was dressed or when or where I was walking (3 in the afternoon, two minutes away from Disneyland) so that's what always comes to mind.

BAW, that's awful, I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

But that brings to mind another "you should have" or "why didn't you" that you hear in these situations. There are some people who might ask "Why didn't you scream? Why didn't you shout for help?" Or in a rape/date rape situation, someone might say "Well, didn't you keep fighting back? Did you keep yelling 'no'?"

Everyone reacts to being assaulted differently. Some people might be too frightened of being hurt. Some people might feel paralyzed. And for many people, while you might talk a good game about what you would do if it happened to you, you might react completely differently.

It's still assault or rape even if the woman isn't calling for help or fighting and screaming.

I was one of the those people who talked a good game about what I would do and when it actually happened to me, I couldn't do a thing. I got a lot of "why didn't you kick him in the balls" or "why didn't you scream?" and truthfully, I wanted to but I was completely paralyzed. I think the only thing I can remember doing was yelling at him as he walked away, something like "I'm pregnant you sick bastard" I never even considered it an assault until I was much older and really realized what had happened to me.

 

[yolland]

I fully believe it was passivity and vulnerability that made me a target. I know that might come across as blaming the victim but I don't know how else to express it.

No, I think that's drawing a useful conclusion from an awful experience. Walking purposefully with your head up and effecting confidence and alertness when in public isn't a *guaranteed* defense--I was taught to do that from childhood, and it didn't help me in the aforementioned situation--but I absolutely do think it *reduces* your chances of becoming a victim, and will deter many would-be criminals all by itself. I also agree with the idea that a basic self-defense course would be beneficial in multiple ways for most women, even for the confidence-building alone. (The brief lecture-demo of self-defense tips I'd had in health class back in high school definitely helped me in that incident.) Maybe feeling more confident might even make one more inclined to fight back where feasible, to resist the implications of being targeted--rape is fundamentally a hate crime, it's not like being mugged, and the fear isn't just about physical injury.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

It's perfectly natural for people to completely freeze in a situation like that, whatever it is, be it that kind of assault or just a robbery or something. I'm normally or naturally quite confident and a fairly fast and snappy talker (both in a 'give as good as I get' way, but also in a 'talk my way out of it' way) in person, but I scored a massive punch to the head once for being gay (although I'm not), which if not for a bit of luck might have continued to be much worse, and in the immediate lead up to this, I had just completely frozen in every way, verbal and physical, when one or the other of those working would probably have gotten me out of that situation quite quickly. It's just shock.

As an aside - I really hate it when I know I'm freaking a girl/woman out. Walking home late at night, no-one else around, turn a corner and suddenly I'm 'following' someone, but of course, we're just going in the same direction, and you can quite noticeably see the shift in everything about how she's walking/holding her bag/glancing around/general body language. That sucks.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The only way a woman can truly avoid being raped is to avoid being around a rapist.

Yep

I fail to see how being out after 10 at night qualifies as not having "street smarts". Women should get in before it's dark and stay there? You can get sexually assaulted in broad daylight too. Or in your home. So what's the line, what qualifies as being "smart enough"? There isn't one, and nothing qualifies.

You can do everything in your power to try to avoid crime and it can still happen. That's life, I try not to judge people for it. You can look back and question everything that you do, but being in the actual situation is terrifying.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I wonder if in, a culture where flesh is used to sell cars, makeup, and food, if there is a casualness that creates an atmosphere for certain men to feel like "it's no big deal" to harass a woman on the street, or worse. One wonders if this atmosphere ennobles men who are already prone to harassment to go to the next level -- because hey, what's the big deal? There's an inherent narcissism to unchecked sexual gratification that is more than a little troubling. Much good has come from the sexual revolution, but the negative underbelly is a belief that gratification is a valuable end unto itself that, without some restraint, can become abusive.

I would really love to know what makes any man think that street harassment is ok. It's not enjoyable, it's not flattering. It's nerve wracking, it can be scary, it's degrading, I'm not talking about complimenting someone in a nice, polite way. I'm talking about saying or yelling things on the street or from a car, that sort of thing. I don't think street harassment has anything to do with the sexual revolution. What exactly do you mean by that term? More about sex or more about equality? I'm just sort of confused-because equality and street harassment, that's a dangerous connection to make. Not saying AT ALL that's what you were doing. In fact I'm sure you weren't.

I do think you make a good point about the next level. But no matter how much flesh is used and abused to sell things, we can all strive to maintain a certain level of human decency. Some people just can't or don't want to, I guess.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

As an aside - I really hate it when I know I'm freaking a girl/woman out. Walking home late at night, no-one else around, turn a corner and suddenly I'm 'following' someone, but of course, we're just going in the same direction, and you can quite noticeably see the shift in everything about how she's walking/holding her bag/glancing around/general body language. That sucks.

I think it's great that you have such sensitivity about that. Women do not want to make every male a suspect or an enemy-unfortunately that's the way it has to be because you never know.

What can you do? You can't approach her. So I think just having that sensitivity is enough. Sometimes when I'm out walking a guy will say hi when he passes on a bike or jogging, etc. in a way that kind of lets you know that he's sensitive to that. Or apologize if they are behind and I get startled. I appreciate that. I'm talking about daylight though, late at night is a different dynamic. Even though it can happen any time.

 

[Bono's shades]

Self righteous? First of all, you don't know what sort of relationship I have with my friend, nor do you know the tone I would have used when I said it, so you're in no position to make that sort of judgement about me

So I'm assuming you would have said it in a joking way? Oh, well, that makes everything OK then.

 

[Bono's shades]

I wonder if in, a culture where flesh is used to sell cars, makeup, and food, if there is a casualness that creates an atmosphere for certain men to feel like "it's no big deal" to harass a woman on the street, or worse. One wonders if this atmosphere ennobles men who are already prone to harassment to go to the next level -- because hey, what's the big deal? There's an inherent narcissism to unchecked sexual gratification that is more than a little troubling. Much good has come from the sexual revolution, but the negative underbelly is a belief that gratification is a valuable end unto itself that, without some restraint, can become abusive.

Men were harassing women long before the sexual revolution.

 

[maycocksean]

Yeah, I gotta say I disagree with Nathan on this one.

Many highly conservative cultures that require women to dress far more conservatively have much more severe issues with sexual harrassment and rape than we do here in the States. As such, while a discuss of the hypersexualization of our culture might be a useful one to have, it's esentially "off-topic" for this discussion. Rape and hypersexualization aren't connected.

I think it's pretty clear that how a woman is dressed won't make a difference one way or the other in deterring or attracting sexual assault. Ironically, I think that also makes the Slutwalk kind of pointless as well in a way. I think the intentions are good, but a bit misguided. As has already been pointed out the civil rights movement wasn't geared around "****** Walks." ( I happen to feel as a black man that the word has no place in anyone's vocabulary, black people included. It should be retired not "taken back." I would imagine many women would feel the same about the word slut.)

I want to add that I'm sorry for the experience so many of the women posting here on this forum have had. It's shocking and disturbing how many women have been through situations like this. I appreciate your courage and candor in sharing your stories.

 

[Canadiens1131]

BAW, that's awful, I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

But that brings to mind another "you should have" or "why didn't you" that you hear in these situations. There are some people who might ask "Why didn't you scream? Why didn't you shout for help?" Or in a rape/date rape situation, someone might say "Well, didn't you keep fighting back? Did you keep yelling 'no'?"

Everyone reacts to being assaulted differently. Some people might be too frightened of being hurt. Some people might feel paralyzed. And for many people, while you might talk a good game about what you would do if it happened to you, you might react completely differently.

It's still assault or rape even if the woman isn't calling for help or fighting and screaming.

From what I've read in textbooks and gleamed from a long history of listening to Dr. Drew Pinksy dole out staggeringly accurate diagnoses to callers on Loveline, a "freeze up, don't make a noise" reaction during a sexual assault is a big red flag that may indicate prior sexual abuse in the victim's past.

 

[anitram]

What can you do? You can't approach her. So I think just having that sensitivity is enough.

I have a friend who will purposely cross the street and walk on the other side if he finds himself inadvertently trailing a woman who is alone very late at night. He says he figures that she feels a lot safer and he feels way less awkward that way.

When I was in first year of law school, we read a case where a female grad student was walking home from the library late at night on a quiet street. Apparently she had dropped something on the ground and didn't realize it and a guy walking behind her picked it up. So he hurried up to catch up with her and when he got very close and said "Excuse me" she turned around and maced him in the face. Unbeknownst to him she had been raped the year before (and the assailant was actually jailed), and so was obviously hypersensitive. It was a case about civil damages and whether she owed him anything, but I just thought of it now.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I have a friend who will purposely cross the street and walk on the other side if he finds himself inadvertently trailing a woman who is alone very late at night. He says he figures that she feels a lot safer and he feels way less awkward that way.

When I was in first year of law school, we read a case where a female grad student was walking home from the library late at night on a quiet street. Apparently she had dropped something on the ground and didn't realize it and a guy walking behind her picked it up. So he hurried up to catch up with her and when he got very close and said "Excuse me" she turned around and maced him in the face. Unbeknownst to him she had been raped the year before (and the assailant was actually jailed), and so was obviously hypersensitive. It was a case about civil damages and whether she owed him anything, but I just thought of it now.

I suppose you could cross-but what if the same situation happens on the other side? I don't know..it is sad that it has to be that way.

I can completely understand that woman's hypersensitivity-did she owe him anything, how did it work out?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

They also had to make a volunteer "training" video in which they had to talk about what they did "wrong" and how they could have "prevented" the rapes.


WASHINGTON -- Jessica Smochek told members of Congress on Wednesday that, after being brutally gang-raped in Bangladesh in 2004, a Peace Corps medical officer refused to give her a proper physical examination. Instead, the medic confiscated the former English teacher's cellphone so that she could not alert her fellow volunteers and instructed her to tell anyone who asked about her sudden departure from the program that she was returning to the U.S. to get her wisdom teeth out. When Smochek arrived in Washington, D.C., a Peace Corps official asked her to write down everything she had done to provoke the attack.

"Shortly after I left, the country director -- who never attempted to contact me after I was raped -- called a meeting of several women in my former volunteer group and told them, without my permission, what had happened to me," she said. "Then, he told them that rape was a woman’s fault and that I had caused what happened to me by being out alone after 5:00 PM. As for the other women in the group, who had been very vocal about being constantly stalked and afraid, he threatened them with administrative separation."

Smochek was one of a growing number of former Peace Corps volunteers who are speaking out about the sexual assaults they endured while serving abroad. Their stories have sparked Congressional hearings, as well as pledges for institutional reform.

Since it was founded in 1961, the Peace Corps has sent 200,000 volunteers to 139 countries. Between 2000 and 2009, an average of 22 women each year report being victims of rape or attempted rape, the agency told HuffPost Wednesday. There have been more than 1,000 sexual assaults and 221 rapes or attempted rapes in that time. Since sexual crimes often go unreported, experts note the numbers may be significantly higher.

At a meeting of the House Foreign Affairs Committee on Wednesday, lawmakers heard from three former Peace Corps volunteers about their experiences as victims of violence and sexual assault while serving overseas, as well as from Lois Puzey, whose daughter, Kate Puzey, was murdered while serving in Benin in 2009. The hearing, led by Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.), highlighted not only the perils volunteers faced while abroad, but the agency's lack of support for victims of abuse.

"The social support that a victim receives in the hour after the assault occurs is the key factor in assuring whether the victim will have long-term mental health problems," said Karestan Koenen, a Peace Corps rape victim who now teaches psychology at Columbia and Harvard. "We question ourselves and question our behavior. Blaming the victim just adds to the questioning of your own behavior -- you end up internalizing that blame and it can stop you from seeking help that you need because you are afraid that other people will respond the same way."

Peace Corps Director Aaron S. Williams apologized on Wednesday for the agency's failure to respond compassionately or offer assistance to the Peace Corps' victims of sexual assault and violence. Williams signaled that he is ready and willing to work with Congress to craft legislation aimed at institutional reform.


“The health, safety, and support of every member of our Peace Corps family is my number one priority,” said Williams in a prepared statement. “The Peace Corps of today takes the issue of sexual assault prevention and response seriously and we are dedicated to providing compassionate victim-centered care. Since I became Director, the Peace Corps has put in place new policies to reduce the risks faced by volunteers and to ensure they receive our full support when a tragedy occurs.”

But some victims emphasized that apologies are not enough.

"Apologies without actions are useless," said Carol Marie Clark, a former Peace Corps volunteer who was raped by her boss. "Soon after I began working, my supervisor, the Nepalese Peace Corps program director, began telling the female volunteers that we would have to have sex with him in order to receive our living supplement checks. Volunteers told our country director about this, but he did nothing."

"I have had an apology from the Peace Corps," Clark said at the hearing, "but I haven’t seen them take action."

 

[ryancoke71]

What the F*ck??? She had to write down everything that provoked the attack??? That makes me sick!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

When you read more about it it gets even worse. They were often basically accused of joining the Peace Corps in order to go out and get drunk and have sex with men. Those sluts

 

[anitram]

I can completely understand that woman's hypersensitivity-did she owe him anything, how did it work out?

She had a very reasonable judge - I can't remember exactly but she owed him for his actual (medical expenses and I think a ruined shirt?) but no additional punitive damages, etc.

 

[ryancoke71]

When you read more about it it gets even worse. They were often basically accused of joining the Peace Corps in order to go out and get drunk and have sex with men. Those sluts

People wonder why so many are afraid to report when something happens to them. This is exactly why.

 

[Jive Turkey]

So I'm assuming you would have said it in a joking way? Oh, well, that makes everything OK then.

The point is you have no idea what sort of dynamic my friend and I have, so calling me self righteous is uniformed and ironically, pretty god damn self righteous