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Old 05-13-2011, 04:21 PM   #106
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but do you find it at least a little bit patronizing?
I have yet to hear a wife complain about being treated the way she deserves to be treated, by being showered with praise, or by being served. I think a lot of husbands could stand to be reminded that they should be loving and serving their wives.

The best advice I ever got about parenting: "be a good father by being a good husband."
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Old 05-13-2011, 04:24 PM   #107
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True, but who gave you that advice? Surely not some random twat on the internet who wrote an 'open letter' to you so that his daughters lives aren't ruined by your shitty parenting. This guy is just looking for a pat on the back
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Old 05-13-2011, 04:43 PM   #108
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ok, i find little to actually disagree with in here in the specifics and it sounds like generically good parenting, but it's overall tone strikes me as paternalistic and condescending -- "our women need our protection, men, your job is to serve your women for they are delicate creatures in need of your strength" -- and rooted in old gender-role identities, and comes a little bit too close to that icky, awful Jon Mayer song "Daughters."




creepy and sexist at the same time, and seems to indicate that the purpose of a woman is to become a mother who will raise a daughter he will want to have sex with, and the purpose of a man is to protect his delicate lady-child so that a version of himself will want to marry her.

or am i overreacting? but a line like this:


it's a bit like ... well, gosh, maybe she doesn't get married, but she could be an astrophysicist or something.
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I'm 100% with Irvine on this one. It's nothing more than a self absorbed, holier than thou load of masturbatory drivel. Who died and made him the voice of reason? And really, is there anything more abrasive than telling other people how to raise their kids?
yep, i'm with Irvine and JT on this... came across to me as an extremely cringeworthy, clichéd, patronising piece of sentimental nauseating Hallmark-style drivel

that letter just smacks of dependency, is extremely sexist to my mind, and is already making the daughter out to be a potential "victim" at the mercy of some man... maybe the mother/father should concentrate on raising an independent woman with a mind of her own who knows her self-worth and is equipped to simply kick the ass of any man stupid enough to mess her about... and vice-versa obviously!
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Old 05-13-2011, 05:09 PM   #109
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that letter just smacks of dependency, is extremely sexist to my mind, and is already making the daughter out to be a potential "victim" at the mercy of some man... maybe the mother/father should concentrate on raising an independent woman with a mind of her own who knows her self-worth and is equipped to simply kick the ass of any man stupid enough to mess her about... and vice-versa obviously!

yeah, this is what i'm inclined to think. i do think it's a nice thought to raise your child to be the kind of person you'd want them to marry, but there's an implied sense of victimhood in the advice that i'm just not comfortable with, well intended though it might be.

i don't "shower" Memphis with praise, nor do i expect him to do that to me. excessive praise not only rings false (should we get marriage participation trophies too?), but it also implies that we have nothing to build our self-worth upon beyond the opinions of our spouses. i make sure to point it out when i think he's done something particularly well, and i probably brag about him a bit more than i should about him to other people. i rave about how well he bakes or his photography, but i don't constantly tell him he looks gorgeous/perfect/amazing and that every where he goes he sprinkles fairy dust.

and what does it mean "deserve to be treated." is there a way to treat a wife? is that different than how you'd treat a human being? do we have to treat women differently then men, because they are weak and need our protection as well as our affirmation and acceptance and obviously can't stand on their own two feet?

i'd say the golden rule applies in a marriage: do unto others as you'd do unto yourself. but then, my relationship is apparently one of radical equality, so maybe that's where i get into trouble. i don't see women as potential wives/lovers, i see them as friends and co-workers (i.e., i'd never use the phrase "female friend" in the way that some men do to describe opposite gender friends ... they're just a "friend"). perhaps i don't get this victimhood and what my "responsibility" towards women en masse is as a man with a dangerous penis as well as i should ...

(sorry, i know we're taking this a bit further than it probably was intended to go but, hey, that's what FYM is for, right?)
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Old 05-13-2011, 05:18 PM   #110
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as a man with a dangerous penis
hahahaha
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Old 05-13-2011, 07:36 PM   #111
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I tend to agree that at least some parts of the article are cloyingly through to troublesomely paternalistic. (I also tend to assume that's why anitram chose to post it in this particular thread; I could be wrong.) Especially,
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I won't be by their sides to lead them or guide them and show them the way they should go. All of these things will be up to your son.
A spouse is a partner, not a leader, guide, or substitute parent.
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Without you my daughter has little hope of a bright future. The landscape of America is littered with broken women who have had their lives ruined by boys who were never taught how to be men.
This one bothers me the most. People who aren't already cracked seldom "break" from the strains of sharing their lives with partners they themselves chose. If your daughter is attracted to "boys who were never taught how to be men," then guess what, that tells you as much about her unresolved issues as it does about theirs. And anyone of either sex who looks to their partner to resolve said issues for them is bad news.
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Treat your wife like she deserves to be treated. Shower her with praise, serve her and give your life completely over to her.
Mature men and women don't want to be fawned over, catered to or clung to by their partners, but to be shown respect, thoughtfulness, affection, desire, and to always keep challenging each other and aspiring together to become something greater than the sum of their parts. A little strategic doting now and then can be welcome and necessary for both partners, but as an overall metaphor for the relationship, this is way too stagnant and way too little about the 'We.'


To be fair to the author, sometimes it's easier than it should be to make hair-trigger associations between certain familiar-sounding phrases and the oppressive social practices some people fond of using them follow. It's not like he anywhere says "And I won't give my daughters foolish ideas about pursuing ambitious careers, or thinking their lives could ever be complete without children" or stuff like that, and as far as it goes, there's nothing he asks for here that's really incompatible with raising men who'd accept (or even specifically want) such a partner. It is true that it's much, much harder to raise children you're reasonably confident will have a good shot at a stable and productive marriage (should they want that) than it is to raise children you're reasonably confident will have a good shot at becoming an astrophysicist (should they want that). It's perfectly normal to think from time to time about one's children as future partners to others, and to wonder what kind of people will fall in love with them, because for virtually everyone, that particular need will be a constant throughout their adult lives, and the choices they make to satisfy it will have profound effects on them. And thinking about this is probably especially common with children of the opposite sex, because (so you think) you understand 'the kind of people' who'll fall in love with them that much better, which is both a reassuring and unnerving thought. They're wholly different individuals from you, you realize that more and more with every day they age, and at times that can be frightening, tempting you to turn your thoughts to regulating their external social environment as best you can, because the internal one often doesn't seem to make much sense anymore. Also, this guy's daughters are young, all children that age are highly vulnerable to pretty much everything, and at times you can't help but see all the good and promising things about them through that prism.

Anyhow, it's a long way from there to the noxious variety of paternalism that considers "Dress like a slut, get raped" morally acceptable advice. Any connection would lie in the fact that the kind of man who tends to think of women as achingly innocent, angelic, fragile beings is the flip side of the kind who tends to think of them as titillatingly treacherous, bestial, domitable ones. Neither is desirable in a husband, or a father.
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Old 05-13-2011, 08:12 PM   #112
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A spouse is a partner, not a leader, guide, or substitute parent.
Actually, some psychologists have posited the notion that spouses are indeed substitute parents -- suggesting the idea that, at least subconsciously, human beings seek spouses who can address and heal deficiencies in our relationships with our parents. It's not a radical notion that we seek what we didn't get from our parents in our spouse, so from that perspective, it's not insulting for the author to stress that good parenting (or a lack thereof) will have a specific effect on daughters, as well as sons.

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People who aren't already cracked seldom "break" from the strains of sharing their lives with partners they themselves chose.
But given the depths of relational dysfunction we are capable of, how healthy can we say our choices are?

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it's much, much harder to raise children you're reasonably confident will have a good shot at a stable and productive marriage (should they want that) than it is to raise children you're reasonably confident will have a good shot at becoming an astrophysicist (should they want that).
This. As the father of three small girls, I'm well aware of the fact that I can't control who they're going to be attracted to and who they may one day marry, but I'd be lying if I said that it's not something I think about already. I know that much of my children's psychological/spiritual/emotional health is up to me and my wife, but I'm also aware that there are a host of influences out there that work in opposition to whatever good we're trying to do. As a result, I have no problem with fathers encouraging other fathers to raise the bar, so to speak. I don't find it particularly insulting either, but then, I don't think I'm perfect. (FYM long ago cured me of that assumption! )
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:33 PM   #113
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An Open Note to Fathers with Young Boys - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

It's up to you to raise your son in a way that will allow him to become the man he needs to be. Without you my daughter has little hope of a bright future.
Yikes.

I had high hopes for this article, but as I read on, they were dashed. I like the sentiment of raising boys to respect and honour women, not to be their caretakers. Geesh.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:08 PM   #114
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honour women


what does this mean?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:19 PM   #115
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what does this mean?
What do you take it to mean? Shouldn't men be taught to honour and respect women as equals, not something to be used for fun at best, abused and degraded at worst.

And yes, it goes both ways.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:51 PM   #116
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Respect is a word that has a distinct meaning. What do you mean by honor, more specifically? I'm pretty sure that's what Irvine's point is.
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Old 05-14-2011, 12:02 AM   #117
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It would help me to know what either of you take it to mean as I'm conufsed as to what about that word was enough to give you pause.

I'm not sure how to describe what I mean by it, as it's more of a feeling to me.

If you want to break it down, let's try a couple of dictionary examples:
"2. a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family."

"3. high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor."

"13. to hold in honor or high respect; revere: to honor one's parents."

It seems like respect is pretty synonymous with honour. Honour might be taking it a step further. To hold another person with a specific distinction or reverence. In that case, I'd say I'd like to see men have respect for all women at least, but definitely hold their wives/girlfriends/partners/family with a special distinction. I think if that was sincerely instilled in boys from a young age, not just out of duty or expectation, it would alter their actions towards the opposite sex.

I hope that made more sense.
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Old 05-14-2011, 01:23 AM   #118
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i view women as equals. i wouldn't honor someone who is my equal, but i would respect their status as my equal.

this also means that women can be terrible human beings, cruel, selfish, abusive, callous, etc. they can lie, cheat, steal, murder, hate, and do terrible things. i don't think anyone deserves special status because of their gender. and this is what everyone's problem with that article seemed to be. it seemed to make women into something "special" by virtue of their gender. that they need our protection and men must learn to shepherd them through a dangerous, terrible world.

all that said, it is true that some people will use someone's gender as an excuse to degrade another human being in the way that they might use race, class, religion, or sexual orientation. i think it is true that there is a long history of discrimination on the basis of gender, and women are the biggest victims of sexual crimes because of heterosexual men. thus, we all need to be aware of this historical legacy, as well as be aware of one's potential for being the victim of a sexual crime because one is a woman, as well as be aware of the gender-specific stereotypes and expectations and double standards that operate upon women.

however, i don't think the mere possession of a vagina qualifies one for sainthood (nor do i think that's what you mean ... i'm just contesting the word "honor"). or, a vagina is no more saintly than a penis.

my late grandmother deserved my honor because of who she was to our family, for example, and her gender was part of that, certainly. but you should not honor her just because she has a vagina. does that make sense?

these are fine, distinct, small points, and i'm really not disagreeing with you. i just find that the placing of women on a pedestal is in it's own way degrading and just a re-imagining of the patriarchy. and that gross John Mayer song is, i think, a perfect example of that.

for some reason, i'm not going to bed and i'm watching Terminator 2. what i like about this one, as opposed to, say, the original Terminator, is that Linda Hamilton is a deadly killing machine who's hard and hardened and angry and pissed off and tries to kill the Skynet guy. i prefer this than to the original Terminator when she had to be protected, and when the original Terminator hunted down all the Sarah Connors in the phone book. this one is a much more believable human being with complexities and nuances that are not all good. a mistake that can be made, say, in cinema or television, is to take any sort of oppressed minority and, through the impulse to combat stereotypes, turn said minorities into superior human beings than everyone else. remember that show Touched By An Angel? all the angles were, like, black and Irish. gosh, you mean the most obviously oppressed are actually the most righteous of us all? wow, how revelatory. to me, that's patronizing.

and those are the thoughts i have at 1:23am when i should be asleep.
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Old 05-14-2011, 10:53 AM   #119
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It would help me to know what either of you take it to mean as I'm conufsed as to what about that word was enough to give you pause.

I'm not sure how to describe what I mean by it, as it's more of a feeling to me.

If you want to break it down, let's try a couple of dictionary examples:
"2. a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family."

"3. high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor."

"13. to hold in honor or high respect; revere: to honor one's parents."

It seems like respect is pretty synonymous with honour. Honour might be taking it a step further. To hold another person with a specific distinction or reverence. In that case, I'd say I'd like to see men have respect for all women at least, but definitely hold their wives/girlfriends/partners/family with a special distinction. I think if that was sincerely instilled in boys from a young age, not just out of duty or expectation, it would alter their actions towards the opposite sex.

I hope that made more sense.

I totally agree with this. Honour goes both ways, as I honour my husband. Irvine, what you describe sounds more like worship. It might just be the way I am seeing it though. About the equality thing...you may see women as equals, but not all men do.
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Old 05-14-2011, 12:02 PM   #120
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you may see women as equals, but not all men do.


oh, i agree. and the paternalism espoused in the previous article as well as in that Jon Mayer song, and the idea that we need to raise our boys to "serve" and "shower [their wives] with praise" hardly helps with seeing women as equals, or, better, people.

for me, "honor" has connotations that i find a little bit ... archaic. but that could just be my own perception and people can see that in a different way.
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