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Old 10-01-2011, 06:47 PM   #166
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Well then I guess we agree to disagree
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Old 10-01-2011, 07:50 PM   #167
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its pointless arguing. I gave up along time ago discussing male female issues.
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Old 10-01-2011, 09:42 PM   #168
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You know how the feminists are.
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Old 10-01-2011, 10:45 PM   #169
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I just want to give some input on this topic, especially in regards to how women dress effects whether she gets harassed or raped.

I read a book some time ago about an American woman who worked in Afghanistan after the Taliban fell. Even though the Taliban were not around in Kabul, she had to wear a burqa when going out in public. One day, she was followed by a man who kept grabbing her ass - all while wearing a burqa. I'm guessing some of you here in FYM have heard about the sexual harassment that happens in Egypt towards women who are covered from head to toe.

So, this whole argument that women need to cover up in order to avoid harassment or rape is total bullshit. Perverted men will take advantage of women no matter what they wear.

Personally, I think there's a chance that when women are blamed for sexual harassment or assault, whoever is blaming them - male or female - has a fear and hatred for female sexuality.
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:31 AM   #170
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There is no pointing in discussing this issue because it is so entrenched in male/female dynamics.

They should have a female police officer come out and say it because if a male officer said it it will get misinterpreted. You know how the feminists are.
If a female police officer told me the same thing, I'd still be offended. Sadly, there are plenty of women who STILL have this same victim-blaming attitude.

And I fail to see how believing in a women's right not to be raped is a feminist issue. It's a human rights issue.

Anyway, they're saying women who've been targeted were wearing shorts and skirts. Go figure - during summer! What are the odds of that. The fact remains that a rapist will target a woman who is some way vulnerable, which involves a myriad of reasons, the least of which being what she's wearing. The police are right to tell women to be vigilant. The idea that they should avoid skirts and shorts to protect themselves is flimsy at best. I can compile a very large list of things women can do to stay safe, and dressing conservatively and staying indoors isn't even on there.
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Old 10-02-2011, 01:28 AM   #171
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Anyway, they're saying women who've been targeted were wearing shorts and skirts. Go figure - during summer! What are the odds of that.
I suppose it is a bit like the Williamsburg police warning of attacks on males with ironic mustaches
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Old 10-02-2011, 06:04 AM   #172
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The real question is: what affect does a dressing style have on chances of being raped or assaulted? If a rapist saw two female twins walking in front of him, one in a burqa, the other in a bikini, who is he more likely to rape? My guess is that it is the woman in the bikini.

Of course, 100% of the blame should fall on the rapist no matter what, even if the woman is naked. So that's not the issue. The issue is taking precaution vs. doing what you want. It's the woman's choice on how she would like to dress, and nobody should blame her regardless. But on the other hand, I don't think there is anything wrong in taking precautionary measures.

To all the woman, I understand the frustration. It would piss me off also if I was advised to dress differently than I like dressing. As a man, I enjoy white t-shirts. And if a woman rapist is targeting men in white t-shirts, and I was advised not to dress like that anymore, I'd be pissed too. But it's a matter of statistics in my opinion.

On the other hand, if there is evidence showing that dressing style makes absolutely no difference (showing more skin doesn't increase your chances of being assaulted), then that would help remove the stereotype of a rapist, and we shouldn't even have this discussion.

Although all of this has already been said, I'm just trying to put it into a different perspective so hopefully people understand the point that some in this thread are trying to make.

Edit: Like kafrun mentioned few posts above, there are many other measures that can be taken also, besides dressing style. So yea, its a matter of odds.
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Old 10-02-2011, 02:46 PM   #173
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Personally, I think there's a chance that when women are blamed for sexual harassment or assault, whoever is blaming them - male or female - has a fear and hatred for female sexuality.
I see this radically different. I am going to PM you to tell you why off the board.
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Old 10-02-2011, 02:47 PM   #174
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I suppose it is a bit like the Williamsburg police warning of attacks on males with ironic mustaches
I say a moustache is a moustache. Hipster Irony or not.
Sellick wannabees, all of them.
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Old 10-02-2011, 06:44 PM   #175
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I gave up along time ago discussing male female issues.
Probably a safe bet.
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:45 PM   #176
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I suppose it is a bit like the Williamsburg police warning of attacks on males with ironic mustaches
Indeed. Now that would be something.

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The real question is: what affect does a dressing style have on chances of being raped or assaulted? If a rapist saw two female twins walking in front of him, one in a burqa, the other in a bikini, who is he more likely to rape? My guess is that it is the woman in the bikini.
Perhaps, but not necessarily the case at all. It's been discussed earlier in this thread, but the experience of many women is that a rapist will go after a woman who appears distracted, insecure, or vulnerable - regardless of what she's wearing - over a woman who's scantily clad, but who walks with self-assurance and awareness.

Rapists want a victim. They go for the woman who appears as though she won't fight back.

Quote:
Of course, 100% of the blame should fall on the rapist no matter what, even if the woman is naked. So that's not the issue. The issue is taking precaution vs. doing what you want. It's the woman's choice on how she would like to dress, and nobody should blame her regardless. But on the other hand, I don't think there is anything wrong in taking precautionary measures.
As the last line I just wrote shows, the idea of dressing any differently making an iota of difference in a woman's safety is flimsy and even irresponsible to throw around.

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To all the woman, I understand the frustration. It would piss me off also if I was advised to dress differently than I like dressing. As a man, I enjoy white t-shirts. And if a woman rapist is targeting men in white t-shirts, and I was advised not to dress like that anymore, I'd be pissed too. But it's a matter of statistics in my opinion.
If police advised me that there was a rapist on the loose targeting women wearing dresses, I'd continue to wear dresses, but carry a baseball bat with me. Plain and simple.

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On the other hand, if there is evidence showing that dressing style makes absolutely no difference (showing more skin doesn't increase your chances of being assaulted), then that would help remove the stereotype of a rapist, and we shouldn't even have this discussion
We really shouldn't be having this discussion. It's a side note to the real issues, and an excuse for many to rant about their opinions on women's style/sexuality.


And for the record, when I was attacked, I was wearing dark work pants and a winter coat. Nothing overtly sexual about that. However my hair was down. In some cultures, a woman's hair is seen as sexually enticing. Perhaps we should advise women to cover theirs up? Do you see where I'm going with this?

It's a cultural thing. We need to raise boys and and influence men all over to understand that regardless if a woman's hair is down or she's wearing a skirt - hell, wearing a serran wrap mini-dress for all I care - that it is unacceptable in the slightest way to attack/degrade/control her.
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:52 PM   #177
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The real question is: what affect does a dressing style have on chances of being raped or assaulted?
Nothing? As far as I'm concerned, rapists are power tripping sociopaths that will be power tripping sociopaths regardless of whether I walk out of my house half naked or wrapped in a wool blanket.
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Old 10-02-2011, 10:47 PM   #178
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Perhaps, but not necessarily the case at all. It's been discussed earlier in this thread, but the experience of many women is that a rapist will go after a woman who appears distracted, insecure, or vulnerable - regardless of what she's wearing - over a woman who's scantily clad, but who walks with self-assurance and awareness.

Rapists want a victim. They go for the woman who appears as though she won't fight back.
Right, but when I said two twins, I meant all else being equal. So if two equally insecure & vulnerable girls, one covered head to toe, and one barely covered, which one would a rapist pick? I completely agree that psycho/power/dominating aspect of it is what causes someone to attack in the first place, so as long as a woman can be dominated, that's what matters to him. But dressing slutty would add an extra attraction factor on top of that psychopathic mentality, and that's all I'm trying to say.

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As the last line I just wrote shows, the idea of dressing any differently making an iota of difference in a woman's safety is flimsy and even irresponsible to throw around.

If police advised me that there was a rapist on the loose targeting women wearing dresses, I'd continue to wear dresses, but carry a baseball bat with me. Plain and simple.
This makes a lot of sense. There are many ways to take precautionary measures, so covering yourself up doesn't have to be one of them. I understand.

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We really shouldn't be having this discussion. It's a side note to the real issues, and an excuse for many to rant about their opinions on women's style/sexuality.
As a man, I never understand those who rant about their opinions on a woman's style/sexuality. I think it's sexy when a woman dresses, for the lack of a better word, "slutty". And I think most guys agree with me. Why do they then rant about this? Beats me.

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And for the record, when I was attacked, I was wearing dark work pants and a winter coat. Nothing overtly sexual about that. However my hair was down. In some cultures, a woman's hair is seen as sexually enticing. Perhaps we should advise women to cover theirs up? Do you see where I'm going with this?
Very sorry to hear about your attack. Yea I completely get what you're saying though.

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It's a cultural thing. We need to raise boys and and influence men all over to understand that regardless if a woman's hair is down or she's wearing a skirt - hell, wearing a serran wrap mini-dress for all I care - that it is unacceptable in the slightest way to attack/degrade/control her.
I would think people who are rapists already know that it's wrong to rape someone, but they have an uncontrollable urge because they are fucked up in the head, and so they go ahead and attack.
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Old 10-02-2011, 10:56 PM   #179
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I don't have a problem with police mentioning via their media notices about the assaults that most or all (they've not specified) of the women assaulted by this guy (or guys--that's not known either) have been young, petite, were attacked late on weekend nights as they were unlocking the doors to their apartment buildings/houses, and were wearing skirts (I'm not making the former three up; those also have been cited in the media as common factors). That way, women who fall into some or all of those categories can decide whether or not to take added precautions. But going up to individual women wearing whatever the officer in question perceives as a provocative skirt and making that clear to her is just bad policing and bad community relations. The analogies to T-shirts and puff coats miss the point--if you come up to me and say "Ma'am I see you're wearing a U2 jacket, just so you know there've been several muggings of people wearing U2 jackets lately" then no, I'm not going to be bothered by that; but if you come up to me and say, "Ma'am that's a very revealing dress you've got on there, do you realize women dressed like you have been getting sexually assaulted around here lately," then of course I'm bothered by it (humiliated might be a better word). It should really be a no-brainer that that's dreadful community relations strategy.
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Old 10-03-2011, 12:51 AM   #180
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The analogies to T-shirts and puff coats miss the point--if you come up to me and say "Ma'am I see you're wearing a U2 jacket, just so you know there've been several muggings of people wearing U2 jackets lately" then no, I'm not going to be bothered by that; but if you come up to me and say, "Ma'am that's a very revealing dress you've got on there, do you realize women dressed like you have been getting sexually assaulted around here lately," then of course I'm bothered by it (humiliated might be a better word). It should really be a no-brainer that that's dreadful community relations strategy.
But just to play devil's advocate here for a second (or maybe not. I'm not 100% sure where I stand on this particular incident), does that not reveal the woman's subjectivity in how she feels about what she's wearing rather than a faux pas on the officer's part? I understand the differences in these two scenarios and I have no way of knowing how I would feel on the receiving end, but why should they be different? They're about facts and safety in one particular case, not a commentary on how all women should or shouldn't dress all the time. It seems as though it's almost taboo to speak of a woman's sexuality
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