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Old 05-03-2010, 09:11 AM   #1
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Skinny Jeans Defense

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An Australian man was acquitted of rape Friday when a jury ruled there had to be "collaboration" to remove the woman's tight size 6 skinny jeans.

Jury acquits accused rapist; rules woman's skinny jeans so tight, she must have helped remove them

What do you think?
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:29 AM   #2
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I never heard of this defense, gee they come up with new ones all the time

I don't think all "skinny" jeans are necessarily that tight that they can't be taken off by someone else-especially if that person is determined to carry out an angry, violent act. Bootcut jeans can be just as tight or tighter, maybe there should be a bootcut jeans defense too. Whatever works for you.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:32 AM   #3
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I think there are shitheads in the world who will pull any assinine thing out of their ass because they think the victim is somehow at fault.

Victim blaming never goes out of style.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:38 AM   #4
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The article is pretty vague and makes it sound like a he-said-she-said case regardless of what she was wearing.

Skinny jeans are tapered jeans at the bottom. They aren't necessarily any tighter at the top than any other type of jeans.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:53 AM   #5
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I think it's just a bad article because of the original source (Daily Mail)

A rape can also still occur even if she did help remove the jeans-it leaves out the entire aspect of verbal and non verbal coercion, threatening, intimidation, and fear. Even if someone does remove clothing they can still decide at any point after that they do not want to have sex.

I can't believe courts go along with this
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Old 05-03-2010, 11:45 AM   #6
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The "skinny jeans defense" has become more common in rape trials all over the world.

In 2008, a South Korea jury overturned a rape conviction for the same reason.

An Italian jury upheld a rape conviction in 2008 when lawyers brought a skinny jeans defense, saying "jeans cannot be compared to any type of chastity belt."
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Old 05-03-2010, 11:57 AM   #7
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Gee, and people wonder why a lot of women are hesitant to report being raped.
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Old 05-03-2010, 01:09 PM   #8
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They're just asking to get raped when they walk around like that, wearing those skinny jeans.
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Old 05-03-2010, 01:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
The article is pretty vague and makes it sound like a he-said-she-said case regardless of what she was wearing.

Skinny jeans are tapered jeans at the bottom. They aren't necessarily any tighter at the top than any other type of jeans.



perhaps there was a demonstration in the court room

like the O J trial, "If the glove does not fit, you must acquit."
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Old 05-03-2010, 01:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
They're just asking to get raped when they walk around like that, wearing those skinny jeans being women and just, you know, existing.
I'd say "ha ha, fixed that for you," but I can't even be all jokey about it, since it's starting to feel like this is society's view sometimes.

It's always "she was raped," not "that man raped her."

It's always about the things that women should do to avoid being raped: don't walk alone, don't drink, don't wear a skirt, don't wear something tight, don't exist.

She should have run, she should have screamed, she should have fought harder, she shouldn't have a list of previous sexual partners that people can point to as proof that she's "loose."

You know how long the list would be for men to avoid raping women? One item: Don't rape anyone.
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Old 05-03-2010, 01:20 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
I think it's just a bad article because of the original source (Daily Mail)

A rape can also still occur even if she did help remove the jeans-it leaves out the entire aspect of verbal and non verbal coercion, threatening, intimidation, and fear. Even if someone does remove clothing they can still decide at any point after that they do not want to have sex.

I can't believe courts go along with this
It can still occur but that doesn't mean no one has ever been falsely accused. I'm not saying it did or didn't happen, since I'm not on the jury there's not nearly enough info in the article for me to even want to have an opinion one way or the other. Just because it's a stupid defense does not mean the person is guilty. The jeans really do not change how I think about it one way or the other.
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Old 05-03-2010, 01:26 PM   #12
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Yeah, to be clear, I'm talking ranting in general, not about this case in particular (other than the stupidity of the jeans excuse that juror gave).
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Old 05-03-2010, 01:30 PM   #13
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I think if I were on the jury, I may have wanted to convict him.

Rape is a terrible crime. Stranger rape, date rape, a john can rape a prostitute, a boyfriend can rape his girlfriend and husband a wife. All sex should be consensual.

But this jury had six women, they all voted to acquit.

How much reasonable doubt does one need to say, 'not guilty'.

Each article spins this a little different, I am sure the trial involved more than just 'skinny jeans', I sure hope it did.
Did she report the rape as soon as she left his apartment? Did she stay the night and make breakfast the next morning and wait 3 weeks to report the rape?

Quote:
Nicholas Gonzalez is charged with sexual assaulting a woman who was consoling him over the loss of his girlfriend. According to the Sydney Morning Herald, Gonzalez claims that the sex was consensual as there was no possible way he could take her skinny jeans off without her assistance.

Read more: Skinny jeans as a rape defence - FP Legal Post
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23-year-old Nicholas Gonzales met the woman in a bar in Sydney, and went back to his place to listen to some music. When they went to his bedroom so Gonzales could play the drums, the woman said he pushed her onto his bed, and jumped on top of her.
"I struggled to try to get up for a while and then he undid my jeans and he pulled them off," then raped her, the 24-year-old woman testified. Gonzales said the sex was consensual.
The woman admits she was wearing size-6 skinny jeans, but she said she had no problem getting in and out of them.
Quote:
CAN a woman wearing skinny jeans be raped? Or are they so tight they can be taken off only with her consent?

These are some of the questions a jury asked before acquitting a Sydney man of sexual assault.

Nicholas Eugenio Gonzalez was accused of raping the 24-year-old as she consoled him about breaking up with one of her friends.

The jury of six men and six women heard Mr Gonzalez, 23, had allegedly pushed the woman on to his bed, ripping off her size six skinny jeans and underpants before the attack.

In his defence, Mr Gonzalez, a navy cook, said the sex was consensual.

During the trial the jury sent a note to the judge asking for more information about ''how exactly Nick took off her jeans''.

''I doubt those kind of jeans can be removed without any sort of collaboration,'' the note read.
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
perhaps there was a demonstration in the court room

like the O J trial, "If the glove does not fit, you must acquit."
if the hem does taper, then he didnt rape 'er
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:19 AM   #15
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"Nicholas Eugenio Gonzalez was accused of raping the 24-year-old as she consoled him about breaking up with one of her friends."

Revenge (as in: let him pay for the breakup)?
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:33 AM   #16
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Women are definitely often less forgiving. Look at what happened to Erin Andrews and what Christine Brennan and that fool Elisabeth Hasselbeck said about her (wouldn't use her as a standard but she is a woman).



Why We Still Blame Victims of Rape
May 11, 2010

By Ellen Friedrichs

Earlier this year, Christina Keegan--also known as Miss Nevada--announced that the issue she chose to champion as her platform for the 2010 Miss America competition would be rape education and recovery. Keegan, a 24-year-old medical student, explained that she picked the topic because a few years ago she was slipped the drug GHB and raped by an acquaintance.

In many ways, Keegan's choice of platform reflects the fact that the treatment of rape is different today than it was 20 or 30 ago. Back then, the concept of date rape was a new one and rape victims could expect to be scrutinized just as harshly, if not more so, than their assailant.

To be sure, times have changed. Americans currently live in an era that has many protections for rape survivors. Starting in the late '80s, rape shield laws began to be enacted. These laws prevent the publication of a victim's name and prohibit questioning a victim about her (or his) sexual history during a rape trial. By 1993, all 50 states had criminalized marital rape, and 1994 saw the passage of the Federal Violence Against Women Act. Today, many hospitals make rape kits available to victims and DNA testing is used more and more often in the prosecution of this crime. Additionally, the FBI reports that in the U.S., the rate of reported rapes is now at its lowest point in years.

Yet, our understanding of the crime of rape remains flawed (including those involved in the legal system). For many people, a stranger in a dark alley remains the symbol of rape. Yet as Jen Wilson, director of the Rape Abuse Incest National Network's national hotline explains, "Here in the U.S., around 73 percent of victims know their attacker." This message hasn't completely resonated, and as a result, if a woman's rape doesn't fit into the expected model, her story might be questioned. And if her own choices or character are questionable? Well, she might really be raked over the coals.

It was only six years ago that the woman who accused basketball player Kobe Bryant of rape had her photo and phone number plastered across the Internet, received death threats, and saw her sex life dragged through court as proof that she wasn't a credible witness. "She is not worthy of your belief," one of Bryant's attorneys told the judge.

While this situation was unique in that it involved an accusation against a celebrity, a few recent surveys confirm that victim blaming in general is still alive and well. One survey, conducted with 1,000 people in the UK, found that while both women and men tend to blame female rape victims for sexual assaults, women are actually "less forgiving" than men. Among other things, the survey indicated that 71 percent of women and 57 percent of men believed a woman should accept responsibility for unwanted sex after getting into bed with someone. Another 31 percent of women and 23 percent of men thought women were to blame for rape if they had dressed provocatively. Of all respondents, over half thought there were some circumstances where a victim should accept responsibility for a rape. A different study, conducted by researchers out of the University of Central Lancashire, found that men are more likely than women to blame male victims of rape for not fighting off their attacker.

Blaming the victim isn't unique to rape. Indeed, the actions of people who are sick, poor or unemployed are often questioned as well. But the ways in which we blame rape victims, the majority of whom are women, are different. Sometimes this blame is subtle. Other times, not so much. Take leaflets handed out to random women by members of a Christian group in Virginia last month. Titled "Women & Girls," they read, "Scripture tells us that when a man looks on a woman to lust for her he has already committed adultery in his heart. If you are dressed in a way that tempts men to do this secret (or not so secret) sin, you are a participant in the sin. By the way, some rape victims would not have been raped if they had dressed properly. So can we really say they were innocent victims?"

Clearly, this is a fringe group. But street-corner proselytizers aren't alone in believing myths about rape. A lot of people scrutinize everything about a rape victim: how she dressed, how she acted, how much she drank, her previous sexual partners, where she was and why she was there. And it isn't only the actions of a victim that are questioned; some of the most common rape myths are actually about rapists. As Jen Wilson of RAINN says, "One of them, again, is that you'll be attacked by a stranger, and that the likelihood of that is greater than [being attacked by] someone you know."

There are many reasons people blame victims and believe rape myths. A 2010 analysis of rape myth beliefs published in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence confirmed what a lot of people probably suspected: men who are sexually aggressive and hostile toward women are more likely to believe rape myths. Researchers Eliana Suarez and Tahany M. Gadalla explain : "Higher RMA [rape myth acceptance] appeared to be related with playboy behavior, sociosexuality, and use of degrading images." Interestingly, they also concluded that rape myth belief was higher in those whose tolerance of racial and religious difference was lower.

Another study done by researchers in Israel found that people blame rape victims in order to maintain a sense of control over their own lives. As they write,


In general, the results show that subjects attribute blame to the rape victim. Attribution of blame helps to reinforce the casual observer's belief that the world is a safe, protected place, and that occurrences such as rape can be controlled...Blame rejects the way in which people organize data regarding events and behaviors that have actual or potential adverse consequences. It is possible that, given the perception that women are vulnerable, exposed, and more aware of their vulnerability, they are expected to act with extra caution to avoid rape, and are therefore judged more harshly when actually victimized.

These results can explain victim-blaming more as a self-defense mechanism than a callous act of judgment or misogyny. When you believe that victims are to blame for their assaults, you can ensure you won't make the same mistakes. The need to feel in control also explains why men seem to be more likely to blame other men for their rapes, and women other women.

Sadder still is that many victims are the last to let themselves off the hook. As Miss Nevada, Christina Keegan told me, "Everyone sees themselves as the person to blame. I had blamed myself for what happened to me. I asked myself, why did I do that? Why did I wear that? Why did I go there?"

That a person like Keegan feels comfortable speaking publicly about her rape, and that she has an understanding platform from which to do so, shows how our attitudes about the crime have evolved. But old beliefs die hard. I wonder how Keegan's rape story would have been viewed had she been a dancer working late, a drunk party girl at a club, or the longtime wife of the perpetrator, instead of a wholesome, all-American beauty pageant contestant? It's pretty clear that although we've come a long way--with increased legal protections for rape victims, and an expanding understanding of the crime--I know the answer to that question is that we've also got a long way to go.


This article originally appeared at AlterNet.org.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:10 PM   #17
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Erin Andrews is a slutty whore???

maybe I should still be watching DWTS
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Old 05-15-2010, 11:25 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
I think there are shitheads in the world who will pull any assinine thing out of their ass because they think the victim is somehow at fault.

Victim blaming never goes out of style.
I agree....rape is a violent crime. The victim is never at fault.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:02 PM   #19
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Even if the jeans were taken off consensually, a rape can still occur.
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