Sin - Crime - Immorality > same? similar? different??

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I never implied you were "trolling"; on the contrary, your disagreements are clearly genuine. That is probably the most misused word on Interference.

Your point would be better served by not diluting it with a stream of rapid-fire taunts. No one is going to feel like responding contructively to you if you keep doing that; that's the problem. Give it a rest.
 
Again, apart from my comment to BVS, where are the rapid fire taunts? There were only three other posts, all of which were relevant. I quote that way because I can't be bothered cutting and pasting. It shouldn't matter if they're all contained within one post or a stream of posts. Someone was implying that the religious way of repression will prevent sexual assaults and misconduct. I was illustrating how illogical and hypocritical that is, given the church's less than stellar reputation.
There's only one person here that I'm responding to in any sort of tone and I'm certainly not the one who initiated that
 
If you can't see the connection, maybe you should check out of the conversation.

Or you could read the thread and see the line of disussion that lead us here. Conversations should be fluid. I'm sure you can find any other thread here and cry the same thing.

I saw exactly how the line of discussion lead us here, thank you very much. I just stated that it was interesting. I'm not sure what your problem is, but it's pretty ironic that you are preaching against "thought crimes" and then attack me for that very same thing.
 
i'm finding it interesting how Nathan's religious-based conclusions are really no different from where the academic left was in the 1990s.

Rape culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SlutWalk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i'm sure there are important differences, but the point is essentially the same.

Is the idea that sexually objectifying people--women in particular--leads to a rape culture? (I confess that I ask because I only skimmed the links you provided and wanted to be sure I had the gist of the idea. :reject: )

Also you note that this is where the academic left was in the '90s. Are they no longer there and if not what was the shift?



my sense is that the point is not that touching yourself is bad, but that the thoughts that you think when you do touch yourself harm other people and thus harm yourself.

i'd like to know, however, what one should be thinking when one is masturbating or having sex. should sex (for straights) be done missionary style with the man looking directly into the woman's eyes with the lights on as they whisper affirmative words to one another?

i'd like to know more. what should i be thinking? is it enough that i banish objectifying, demeaning thoughts from my head? do i need to fill my head with affirmative, loving thoughts? what *is* the correct way to have sex so that i don't harm others or myself with my thoughts?

Just to be clear, we got on to the subject of masturbation because of Nathan and I's argument that willful, continued lustful thinking about someone other than one's sexual partner constitutes sin? And since masturbation is assumed to require those very kinds of thoughts that we must also be against masturbation (though we won't admit it)? I just want to be sure I understand as I know I had no intention of going down this road.

I'm not really sure how to address your questions without getting into an area of way, way TMI. I really don't have any directives on what one should be thinking about while masturbating or having sex. I doubt Nathan does either. I know my church doesn't. I guess some churches do--I suppose the Catholic church has a lot to say about all that? I'm not a Catholic and the Catholic teachings on sex (birth control, celibacy, etc etc) are one of the many, many reasons why I'm not. I know it's convenient for some to go ahead and assume that those sexual proscriptions MUST apply to me and to all Christians, but it's just simply not true.

What you think about, what positions you use (I mean the WTF, seriously? The idea that some positions are more holy than others is news to me. Is this really taught in some faith traditions?)--all that falls firmly under the category of none of my business.

When it comes to this kind of stuff you really have to sort it out for yourself. After all, neither you nor anyone else is being harmed (not sure why you kept bringing that up) so no public directive is necessary. No one knows what you're doing behind closed doors and they shouldn't. That should not then necessarily close the door to any discussion of sin as it relates to our internal life. It does close the door to judging others. The only whose mind I can judge is my own.

Know what? I've changed my mind. The church has a great track record of suppressing sexual urges and preventing sexual assaults. Religion must be the answer!

My argument exactly! Glad we brought you around! :hyper:

:|

Dude, I don't even know where to start.
 
Come on dude. If antitram's scenario is unfair (where you conveniently left out the part about fantasizing about Angelina Jolie or George Clooney, which completely changes the context), then implying that we mean it's alright to excuse yourself from a meeting to go knock one out about your coworker in the bathroom is completely distorting the argument.

Funny that you began your post with "Come on, dude." I was thinking the exact same thing as I read your posts!

Seriously though,

My point is that it appeared (though it's been clarified since) that Anitram was setting up an innocuous situation and then saying that Nathan was saying that was wrong. I did not intentionally leave Angelina or George out. I saw that as more less as innocuous too and didn't feel it was necessary to include it.

Finally, please provide some clarity. Is it okay in your opinion to fantasize about your co-worker but not to go "knock one" out immediately after? Would it be more appropriate to wait until one is at home first? Or is it all okay?

Again, my point wasn't to make judgement about any of the above--it was simply to provide what in my view was a more fair argument.
 
Just to be clear, we got on to the subject of masturbation because of Nathan and I's argument that willful, continued lustful thinking about someone other than one's sexual partner constitutes sin? And since masturbation is assumed to require those very kinds of thoughts that we must also be against masturbation (though we won't admit it)? I just want to be sure I understand as I know I had no intention of going down this road.

Not to interject, but we're partly on this topic because when I noted that masturbation was normal, Nathan responded with the following:

I'll never forget something I heard once: "to a liar, the world is full of liars, and to a thief, the world is full of thieves." The idea being that, in our own eyes, our dysfunctional behavior sometimes seems very normal. That doesn't make it right.

So unless I'm missing something, there was a clear implication that the activity was somehow abnormal or dysfunctional. And given that every reputable psychiatrist and doctor will tell you as much (putting aside people with sex addictions), then the conclusion is that it is something about Nathan's religious orientation that leads him to the above conclusions, and not something that has bearing on us physiologically.
 
This is nothing more than a slippery slope argument wrapped up in a fancy quote (Or it might be a Phantom Menace line).

Is it the entire idea you find nonsensical, or just when applied to sexual mores?

As for rape, it seems to be more prevalent in societies where women are repressed than in societies where fantasizing takes place? Which is why, despite what you are implying, I haven't made that argument.
 
Not to interject, but we're partly on this topic because when I noted that masturbation was normal, Nathan responded with the following:



So unless I'm missing something, there was a clear implication that the activity was somehow abnormal or dysfunctional. And given that every reputable psychiatrist and doctor will tell you as much (putting aside people with sex addictions), then the conclusion is that it is something about Nathan's religious orientation that leads him to the above conclusions, and not something that has bearing on us physiologically.


No, I understand how you drew that conclusion. I just think it was a misunderstanding, and so far Nathan has said nothing to the contrary. He agreed with me that he would agree with you on what you originally said and later said he doesn't care about masturbation. So I don't think he's harboring a secret anti-masturbation philosophy. . . I think he just took the word "normal" out of your post and riffed on the whole idea of normal. I think it's intentional that he left out your context around the word, because he wasn't planning to use your context, but instead launch in a slightly different direction. Again, I'm assuming a lot, but he can always correct me.
 
I would argue that finding someone sexually attractive and not being able to stifle the thoughts after the first one is still completely normal and nothing to be ashamed of (and nothing to try to repress). Think about how damaging it must be to either push those thoughts into the recesses of your mind, or continually beat yourself up (as opposed to off) because they keep popping up

Agreed.

You are extrapolating arguments that neither Nathan or I have made. Apparently any consideration of sexual morality must ultimately arrive at this tripe? Talk about slippery slopes!
 
I've got an honest question for you guys: What would you suggest someone think about while masturbating to avoid god's wrath?

I think already answered in one of my more recent posts, but I'll say it again:

I have no suggestions.

I'm not particularly worried about God's wrath. If I was, I probably would have left faith a long time ago. I mean who wants to live like that? I mean I understand that there are Christians who do, but I couldn't do it. :shrug:
 
maycocksean said:
:|

Dude, I don't even know where to start.

Why is it okay for Nathan to imply that a culture filled with more than a fleeting sexual thought about women has led to 1 in 6 being sexually assaulted, but when I bring up the rampant sexual abuse of children in an institution that champions the repression on natural, sexual thought, I get the straight mouth face guy?
 
maycocksean said:
Finally, please provide some clarity. Is it okay in your opinion to fantasize about your co-worker but not to go "knock one" out immediately after? Would it be more appropriate to wait until one is at home first? Or is it all okay?

If its an appropriate place to have sex, it's an appropriate place to fantasize about your coworker and masturbate. I think we will both agree that having sex at work is inappropriate

Again, my point wasn't to make judgement about any of the above--it was simply to provide what in my view was a more fair argument.

I get that, I just feel you took it way too far in the other direction
 
maycocksean said:
Agreed.

You are extrapolating arguments that neither Nathan or I have made. Apparently any consideration of sexual morality must ultimately arrive at this tripe? Talk about slippery slopes!

It was stated in a previous post that 'looking once is ok. Looking twice is a sin." I'm not extrapolating at all. It might not be your argument, but it was Nathan's. Maybe he can speak for himself so we don't keep having these misunderstandings
 
Why is it okay for Nathan to imply that a culture filled with more than a fleeting sexual thought about women has led to 1 in 6 being sexually assaulted, but when I bring up the rampant sexual abuse of children in an institution that champions the repression on natural, sexual thought, I get the straight mouth face guy?

You got the straight mouth guy because you created a ridiculous conclusion that we were supposedly trying to get you to come to and then sarcastically admitted defeat.

I was certainly not defending the Church's record on sex. (not my church by the way, with all due respect to Catholics on the forum. There was this little thing called the Protestant Reformation, you may have heard of it. And there are some pretty major differences between the capital C Church and the motley bunch of Protestant denominations floating around out there. It's like lumping Communism and "the liberals" into one bunch).

As far as what Nathan was implying he will have to elaborate on that himself. I'll be honest, I wasn't exactly sure where he was going--I might agree with him, I might not. I figured I'd wait and see rather than deciding I knew EXACTLY where he was coming from and shooting him down.
 
If its an appropriate place to have sex, it's an appropriate place to fantasize about your coworker and masturbate. I think we will both agree that having sex at work is inappropriate



I get that, I just feel you took it way too far in the other direction

Okay, fair point. I wasn't intending to take it that far. Just playing around with some hyperbole and it got away from me.
 
maycocksean said:
(not my church by the way, with all due respect to Catholics on the forum. There was this little thing called the Protestant Reformation, you may have heard of it. And there are some pretty major differences between the capital C Church and the motley bunch of Protestant denominations floating around out there. It's like lumping Communism and "the liberals" into one bunch).

You guys keep bringing this up as if it's relevant. It's not. Ok, we aren't talking about your specific church. It changes nothing. I'm also not doing the raping in colorado. I get the defensiveness for your church, but we're speaking in broad terms here
 
maycocksean said:
Okay, fair point. I wasn't intending to take it that far. Just playing around with some hyperbole and it got away from me.

Understandable and fair enough
 
It was stated in a previous post that 'looking once is ok. Looking twice is a sin." I'm not extrapolating at all. It might not be your argument, but it was Nathan's. Maybe he can speak for himself so we don't keep having these misunderstandings

True enough.

I read "looking once is okay, looking twice is a sin" as something that wasn't intended to be taken absolutely literally.

I really think our pre-assumptions about this topic really affect how we're interpreting these posts.
 
maycocksean said:
I really think our pre-assumptions about this topic really affect how we're interpreting these posts.

I can get behind this :) on both sides
 
You guys keep bringing this up as if it's relevant. It's not. Ok, we aren't talking about your specific church. It changes nothing. I'm also not doing the raping in colorado. I get the defensiveness for your church, but we're speaking in broad terms here


How is it not relevant? You're ascribing positions on sexuality that belong to one particular branch of Christianity (okay it is by far the largest and most powerful, but still!), that decisively do not belong to others. Why should I be made to answer for the sins (if you'll excuse the term) of the Church? We actually probably agree on what's wrong there, so I have no desire to be placed into the position of defending the Church on this.

Who is raping in Colorado? I am confused.

As for defending my particular denomination per se, (Man, you'd have a field day with a lot of our teachings--I don't even agree with them all!), I not looking to do that either. I understand the terms are broad just not liberals=communist broad.
 
I think part of the problem is that most Christian denominations, including Protestant religions, have become mouthpieces for sex-related politics in this country. Not their members, mind you, but their leaders, and thus, their proscribed beliefs on the record. It's the Christian politicians who want to slut shame anyone who thinks birth control should be covered by insurance. It's the Christian politicians who want to get involved in the affairs of gay couples. This influences every discussion of sex-related politics, especially when the conversation is happening between some religious and nonreligious people.

So, we are probably closer in thinking than we seem to be.
 
maycocksean said:
Why should I be made to answer for the sins (if you'll excuse the term) of the Church?

You shouldn't be. I don't want you to feel like you need to either. As Peef said further down the page, maybe we're closer on this than you probably are with other religious people.
 
my original point has since been moved on, but the overarching point is that there is an intersection between left-wing feminism and more conservative religious thought, and in a way i think both are right. i am a big supporter of all forms of sexual expression and sexual freedom, the right to have as much or as little sex as you want however and whenever you want, which may include acts or dynamics that many of us might be uncomfortable with so long as both partners are consenting and of legal age. maybe i want you to treat me like a sex object. maybe i want to obey your strict orders. maybe i want you to look at me as we make love and tell each other how beautiful we are and how much i love you. all these things are fine in any free society. and i think both feminism and the religious while rightly insisting on not dehumanizing people wind up infantilizing all of us by assuming that they know what is best for you.

i do think, however, that sexual freedom comes with complications. take "Girls" on HBO, probably the most talked-about (loved and hated) show of 2012, and Frank Bruni's take on it. (Bruni is gay, which i find interesting):

March 31, 2012
The Bleaker Sex
By FRANK BRUNI

THE first time you see Lena Dunham’s character having sex in the new HBO series “Girls,” her back is to her boyfriend, who seems to regard her as an inconveniently loquacious halfway point between partner and prop, and her concern is whether she’s correctly following instructions.

“So I can just stay like this for a little while?” she asks. “Do you need me to move more?”

He needs her to intrude less. “Let’s play the quiet game,” he answers.

The second time, she’s an 11-year-old junkie with a Cabbage Patch lunchbox, or so he tells her, commencing a role play in which he alone assigns the roles. He has highly specific fantasies, and she’s largely a fleshy canvas for them.

You watch these scenes and other examples of the zeitgeist-y, early-20s heroines of “Girls” engaging in, recoiling from, mulling and mourning sex, and you think: Gloria Steinem went to the barricades for this? Salaries may be better than in decades past and the cabinet and Congress less choked with testosterone. But in the bedroom? What’s happening there remains something of a muddle, if not something of a mess.

“Girls” makes its debut in two weeks. Dunham, just 25, is not only its star but also its principal writer and director, and she has already been accorded a voice-of-her-generation status. She even lampoons this in “Girls” by having her character, an aspiring writer, claim such a mantle for herself.

The show is drawing inevitable — and apt — comparisons to “Sex and the City,” in whose long shadow it blooms. “Girls,” too, is a half-hour comedy (of sorts) about four women finding themselves and fortifying one another in the daunting, libidinous wilds of New York City.

But it’s a recession-era adjustment. The gloss of Manhattan is traded for the mild grit of Brooklyn’s more affordable neighborhoods. The anxieties are as much economic as erotic. The colors are duller, the mood is dourer and the clothes aren’t much. It’s “Sex and the City” in a charcoal gray Salvation Army overcoat.

It comes along at a moment of fresh examination of women’s progress. A just-published book, “The Richer Sex,” by Liza Mundy, asserts that women are well on their way to becoming the primary breadwinners in a majority of American families; it rated the cover of Time magazine two weeks ago. It will be joined later this year by “The End of Men,” by Hanna Rosin, which answers the question posed by the title of Maureen Dowd’s prescient 2005 best seller, “Are Men Necessary?” As Rosin sees it, not so much, because women have achieved unprecedented autonomy.

But “Girls” also amplifies a growing chorus of laments over what’s happening on the sexual frontier, a state of befuddlement reflective in part of post-feminist power dynamics and in part of our digital culture and virtual fixations.

Are young women who think that they should be more like men willing themselves into a casual attitude toward sex that’s an awkward emotional fit? Two movies released last year, “No Strings Attached” and “Friends With Benefits,” held that position, and Dunham subscribes to it as well.

In a recent interview, presented in more detail on my Times blog, she told me that various cultural cues exhort her and her female peers to approach sex in an ostensibly “empowered” way that she couldn’t quite manage. “I heard so many of my friends saying, ‘Why can’t I have sex and feel nothing?’ It was amazing: that this was the new goal.”

She added: “There’s a biological reason why women feel about sex the way they do and men feel about sex the way they do. It’s not as simple as divesting yourself of your gender roles.”

THE Web confuses things further, unfurling a seemingly infinite cosmos of ready possibility and abetting lightning-fast connections. Several popular cellphone apps give someone with a sudden whim for a date the pictures and physical proximities of similarly inclined prospects. An assignation may be no more than 10 minutes and 20 blocks away.

Dunham noted that the Web also fosters a misleading sense of familiarity between people who have shared nothing more than keystrokes. “All sorts of promiscuity don’t feel like promiscuity,” she said. “But a month of text messages does not a personal connection make. I’ve fallen victim to the sensation that I understand some guy’s essence when I’ve really just read 15 of his tweets.”

And there’s an emerging literature of complaint from young men and women alike about the impact of free or cheap online pornography. Early last year, New York magazine ran an article by Davy Rothbart, 36, who admitted faking an orgasm with a real live woman, learned that other men had done so as well and wondered if a “tsunami of porn” was to blame. It was titled “He’s Just Not That Into Anyone.”

Last February GQ pondered the problem from a feminine perspective. A young woman writing under a pseudonym cited her and her friends’ experiences to assert that for more and more men, “the buffet of fetishistic porn available 24/7” had created very particular and sometimes very peculiar, ratcheted-up desires.

“To compare it to another genre of online video,” she wrote, “why watch a clip of one puppy frolicking in a field when you can watch eight different puppies cuddling with a sweet-faced baby armadillo tickling a panda bear? And after seeing that, why ever settle for a boring ol’ puppy frolicking in a field again?”

“Guys my age watch so much pornography,” Dunham told me, adding that she has been subjected to aggressive positioning and “a lot of errant hair pulling” and has thought: “There’s no way that you, young Jewish man from Chappaqua, taught this to yourself.”

These experiences inform her “Girls” sex scenes, which have a depersonalized aspect. So does the sadomasochistic relationship in the best-selling erotic novel “Fifty Shades of Grey,” a publishing-industry phenomenon about a virginal college student presented with a contract to become the “Submissive” to a dashing older man’s “Dominant.” The contract covers waxing, hygiene and the frequency with which she must work out. She haggles him down from four times a week to three.

Credibly or not, the college student seems exhilarated at the start. Dunham’s more convincingly rendered characters seem perplexed, and their frustration with men raises questions about whether less privacy means more intimacy and whether sexual candor is any guarantor of sexual satisfaction.

People can be so available in a superficial sense that they’re inaccessible in a deeper one. Or, as Dunham put it, “People underestimate the importance of making solid connections.”


food for thought?
 
maycocksean said:
Who is raping in Colorado? I am confused.

Nathan posted a statistic that 1 in 6 women in Colorado had either been assaulted or full on raped, implying that it was a result of our culture of sexual objectification. That's what my child assault in the church comment was responding to. It was more a case of 'how are you going to bring that up when there is this?'. Do I think repressing sexual thoughts is damaging? Yes. Do I think it leads directly to child molestation? Of course not. Not any more than sexual fantasies lead to rape
 
I think part of the problem is that most Christian denominations, including Protestant religions, have become mouthpieces for sex-related politics in this country. Not their members, mind you, but their leaders, and thus, their proscribed beliefs on the record. It's the Christian politicians who want to slut shame anyone who thinks birth control should be covered by insurance. It's the Christian politicians who want to get involved in the affairs of gay couples. This influences every discussion of sex-related politics, especially when the conversation is happening between some religious and nonreligious people.

So, we are probably closer in thinking than we seem to be.



the political arm of Christianity is amazingly sex obsessed. including the Pope.
 
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