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Old 06-22-2012, 02:15 PM   #91
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I never implied you were "trolling"; on the contrary, your disagreements are clearly genuine. That is probably the most misused word on Interference.

Your point would be better served by not diluting it with a stream of rapid-fire taunts. No one is going to feel like responding contructively to you if you keep doing that; that's the problem. Give it a rest.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:23 PM   #92
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Again, apart from my comment to BVS, where are the rapid fire taunts? There were only three other posts, all of which were relevant. I quote that way because I can't be bothered cutting and pasting. It shouldn't matter if they're all contained within one post or a stream of posts. Someone was implying that the religious way of repression will prevent sexual assaults and misconduct. I was illustrating how illogical and hypocritical that is, given the church's less than stellar reputation.
There's only one person here that I'm responding to in any sort of tone and I'm certainly not the one who initiated that
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:33 PM   #93
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If you can't see the connection, maybe you should check out of the conversation.

Or you could read the thread and see the line of disussion that lead us here. Conversations should be fluid. I'm sure you can find any other thread here and cry the same thing.
I saw exactly how the line of discussion lead us here, thank you very much. I just stated that it was interesting. I'm not sure what your problem is, but it's pretty ironic that you are preaching against "thought crimes" and then attack me for that very same thing.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:44 PM   #94
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preaching against "thought crimes" and then attack me for that very same thing.
wow.

And let's not pretend your previous comment was innocent
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:42 PM   #95
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i'm finding it interesting how Nathan's religious-based conclusions are really no different from where the academic left was in the 1990s.

Rape culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SlutWalk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i'm sure there are important differences, but the point is essentially the same.
Is the idea that sexually objectifying people--women in particular--leads to a rape culture? (I confess that I ask because I only skimmed the links you provided and wanted to be sure I had the gist of the idea. )

Also you note that this is where the academic left was in the '90s. Are they no longer there and if not what was the shift?



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my sense is that the point is not that touching yourself is bad, but that the thoughts that you think when you do touch yourself harm other people and thus harm yourself.

i'd like to know, however, what one should be thinking when one is masturbating or having sex. should sex (for straights) be done missionary style with the man looking directly into the woman's eyes with the lights on as they whisper affirmative words to one another?

i'd like to know more. what should i be thinking? is it enough that i banish objectifying, demeaning thoughts from my head? do i need to fill my head with affirmative, loving thoughts? what *is* the correct way to have sex so that i don't harm others or myself with my thoughts?
Just to be clear, we got on to the subject of masturbation because of Nathan and I's argument that willful, continued lustful thinking about someone other than one's sexual partner constitutes sin? And since masturbation is assumed to require those very kinds of thoughts that we must also be against masturbation (though we won't admit it)? I just want to be sure I understand as I know I had no intention of going down this road.

I'm not really sure how to address your questions without getting into an area of way, way TMI. I really don't have any directives on what one should be thinking about while masturbating or having sex. I doubt Nathan does either. I know my church doesn't. I guess some churches do--I suppose the Catholic church has a lot to say about all that? I'm not a Catholic and the Catholic teachings on sex (birth control, celibacy, etc etc) are one of the many, many reasons why I'm not. I know it's convenient for some to go ahead and assume that those sexual proscriptions MUST apply to me and to all Christians, but it's just simply not true.

What you think about, what positions you use (I mean the WTF, seriously? The idea that some positions are more holy than others is news to me. Is this really taught in some faith traditions?)--all that falls firmly under the category of none of my business.

When it comes to this kind of stuff you really have to sort it out for yourself. After all, neither you nor anyone else is being harmed (not sure why you kept bringing that up) so no public directive is necessary. No one knows what you're doing behind closed doors and they shouldn't. That should not then necessarily close the door to any discussion of sin as it relates to our internal life. It does close the door to judging others. The only whose mind I can judge is my own.

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Know what? I've changed my mind. The church has a great track record of suppressing sexual urges and preventing sexual assaults. Religion must be the answer!
My argument exactly! Glad we brought you around!



Dude, I don't even know where to start.
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:53 PM   #96
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And let's not pretend your previous comment was innocent
I don't have to pretend.

I think most know me well enough to know that my snark is much more pointed.
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:53 PM   #97
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Come on dude. If antitram's scenario is unfair (where you conveniently left out the part about fantasizing about Angelina Jolie or George Clooney, which completely changes the context), then implying that we mean it's alright to excuse yourself from a meeting to go knock one out about your coworker in the bathroom is completely distorting the argument.
Funny that you began your post with "Come on, dude." I was thinking the exact same thing as I read your posts!

Seriously though,

My point is that it appeared (though it's been clarified since) that Anitram was setting up an innocuous situation and then saying that Nathan was saying that was wrong. I did not intentionally leave Angelina or George out. I saw that as more less as innocuous too and didn't feel it was necessary to include it.

Finally, please provide some clarity. Is it okay in your opinion to fantasize about your co-worker but not to go "knock one" out immediately after? Would it be more appropriate to wait until one is at home first? Or is it all okay?

Again, my point wasn't to make judgement about any of the above--it was simply to provide what in my view was a more fair argument.
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:56 PM   #98
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Just to be clear, we got on to the subject of masturbation because of Nathan and I's argument that willful, continued lustful thinking about someone other than one's sexual partner constitutes sin? And since masturbation is assumed to require those very kinds of thoughts that we must also be against masturbation (though we won't admit it)? I just want to be sure I understand as I know I had no intention of going down this road.
Not to interject, but we're partly on this topic because when I noted that masturbation was normal, Nathan responded with the following:

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I'll never forget something I heard once: "to a liar, the world is full of liars, and to a thief, the world is full of thieves." The idea being that, in our own eyes, our dysfunctional behavior sometimes seems very normal. That doesn't make it right.
So unless I'm missing something, there was a clear implication that the activity was somehow abnormal or dysfunctional. And given that every reputable psychiatrist and doctor will tell you as much (putting aside people with sex addictions), then the conclusion is that it is something about Nathan's religious orientation that leads him to the above conclusions, and not something that has bearing on us physiologically.
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:58 PM   #99
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This is nothing more than a slippery slope argument wrapped up in a fancy quote (Or it might be a Phantom Menace line).
Is it the entire idea you find nonsensical, or just when applied to sexual mores?

As for rape, it seems to be more prevalent in societies where women are repressed than in societies where fantasizing takes place? Which is why, despite what you are implying, I haven't made that argument.
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:04 PM   #100
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Not to interject, but we're partly on this topic because when I noted that masturbation was normal, Nathan responded with the following:



So unless I'm missing something, there was a clear implication that the activity was somehow abnormal or dysfunctional. And given that every reputable psychiatrist and doctor will tell you as much (putting aside people with sex addictions), then the conclusion is that it is something about Nathan's religious orientation that leads him to the above conclusions, and not something that has bearing on us physiologically.

No, I understand how you drew that conclusion. I just think it was a misunderstanding, and so far Nathan has said nothing to the contrary. He agreed with me that he would agree with you on what you originally said and later said he doesn't care about masturbation. So I don't think he's harboring a secret anti-masturbation philosophy. . . I think he just took the word "normal" out of your post and riffed on the whole idea of normal. I think it's intentional that he left out your context around the word, because he wasn't planning to use your context, but instead launch in a slightly different direction. Again, I'm assuming a lot, but he can always correct me.
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:05 PM   #101
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Gotcha!
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:06 PM   #102
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I would argue that finding someone sexually attractive and not being able to stifle the thoughts after the first one is still completely normal and nothing to be ashamed of (and nothing to try to repress). Think about how damaging it must be to either push those thoughts into the recesses of your mind, or continually beat yourself up (as opposed to off) because they keep popping up
Agreed.

You are extrapolating arguments that neither Nathan or I have made. Apparently any consideration of sexual morality must ultimately arrive at this tripe? Talk about slippery slopes!
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:09 PM   #103
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I've got an honest question for you guys: What would you suggest someone think about while masturbating to avoid god's wrath?
I think already answered in one of my more recent posts, but I'll say it again:

I have no suggestions.

I'm not particularly worried about God's wrath. If I was, I probably would have left faith a long time ago. I mean who wants to live like that? I mean I understand that there are Christians who do, but I couldn't do it.
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:10 PM   #104
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Gotcha!
It is gratifying to be understood.
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:11 PM   #105
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Dude, I don't even know where to start.
Why is it okay for Nathan to imply that a culture filled with more than a fleeting sexual thought about women has led to 1 in 6 being sexually assaulted, but when I bring up the rampant sexual abuse of children in an institution that champions the repression on natural, sexual thought, I get the straight mouth face guy?
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