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Old 06-20-2012, 09:20 PM   #31
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Patience, guys. A change of heart comes slow.
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:49 PM   #32
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Sin starts in the heart, doesn't it? And it's the heart that ultimately needs changing...
How do you stop yourself from thinking?
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:22 PM   #33
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How many of the 7 deadly sins would you consider immoral? maybe wrath in certain contexts, but probably none of the others. They're population pacifiers.

And thought crimes like 'thou shall not covet' are certainly not immoral
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Is homosexuality not considered a sin by many of the religious persuasion?

You have to understand that I am assuming that there is an actual "real" definition of sin that is not necessarily the same as what many practitioners of faith call "sin."

Here is an analogy that I'm taking from a discussion that cropped up on another thread awhile back. One could argue that a true definition of "Communism" is out there but that none of the so-called Communist countries actually meet that "real definition." In the same way, I'm maintaining that there is a "true" definition of sin out there but that some of things
believers call sin do not actually meet that "real" definition of sin.

Of course if you've already made up your mind that religion is bankrupt, then it would certainly suit your purposes to attack what in my mind are poor, misguided, or flat out wrong descriptions of sin.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:30 PM   #34
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You have to understand that I am assuming that there is an actual "real" definition of sin that is not necessarily the same as what many practitioners of faith call "sin."

Here is an analogy that I'm taking from a discussion that cropped up on another thread awhile back. One could argue that a true definition of "Communism" is out there but that none of the so-called Communist countries actually meet that "real definition." In the same way, I'm maintaining that there is a "true" definition of sin out there but that some of things
believers call sin do not actually meet that "real" definition of sin.

Of course if you've already made up your mind that religion is bankrupt, then it would certainly suit your purposes to attack what in my mind are poor, misguided, or flat out wrong descriptions of sin.
Well, I think part of the problem is that there is no real definition of sin. If you want to get into what sins are universally agreed upon, if we are calling sins religious, you will come up with almost nothing. Which I think gives this discussion a lot of problems.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:34 PM   #35
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I refuse to believe that an author who so properly worded the commandment not to "bear false witness against thou neighbor" (which is one of the few commandments I think we should value) would have such a tough time figuring out a way to word that commandment unless A) he truly meant it to be a thoughtcrime or B) the commandments were pieced together from multiple sources, i.e. not one God.
Actually, I think "bear false witness" is misused all the time. It is often oversimplified to "do not lie". As for the "thou shalt not covet", I don't suppose there's much need to get all worked up about that one. After all, that's one commandment that no could possibly know whether you are breaking anyway--the Minority Report imagery is a tad premature,no?--so it really is a thing between you and God, which is where it should be.


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Sin starts in the heart, doesn't it? And it's the heart that ultimately needs changing...
That is what we believe as Christians. And as I mentioned earlier, Christianity is basically a non-starter without first coming to that conclusion. And I would further add that I don't see it as my business to convince a person that they have a "sin problem." I personally believe that kind of conviction can only come from God and I don't think he needs my help to get people to that point.

I do want to reiterate though, because I did say this at the beginning, that Christians do believe that ultimately the real source of sin is an internal state of being and less on outward actions. It seems several posters are arguing that all that matters is what you do, not your motives, attitudes, or the "state of your heart." I get that. It just doesn't happen to work with Christian theology. (Not that those making the argument are all that concerned about that )

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Sure, but it's manifested in other sins. Stealing, hurting, etc. It's silly to argue that these sins aren't meant as feeling about ones self
I actually don't know what the Seven Deadly Sins are. That really is a denomination-specific thing--the Catholic denomination to be specific. There is no discussion of the SDS or any other number of sins in my faith tradition.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:40 PM   #36
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Well, I think part of the problem is that there is no real definition of sin. If you want to get into what sins are universally agreed upon, if we are calling sins religious, you will come up with almost nothing. Which I think gives this discussion a lot of problems.

I'm not making an argument for what sins are universally agreed upon anymore than I'm making an argument into what aspects of God are universally agreed on. There is some general agreement within particular faith traditions on what sin is which keeps the discussion from being completely moot. Moonlit Angel asked me to share my perspective on sin and that's what I'm doing.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "if we are calling all sins religious, you will come up with almost nothing."
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:47 PM   #37
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He means that if we, collectively, refer to sin as a "religious" term, we won't be able to properly define sin as each religion has a different set of rules/commandments.

If sin is defined by Christianity, we can maybe come up with something resembling universality. Less so if we throw in Judaism and Islam.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:58 PM   #38
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He means that if we, collectively, refer to sin as a "religious" term, we won't be able to properly define sin as each religion has a different set of rules/commandments.

If sin is defined by Christianity, we can maybe come up with something resembling universality. Less so if we throw in Judaism and Islam.
I wonder though, how different, really the definition of sin is among religious people particularly among these three religions.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:06 PM   #39
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I actually don't know what the Seven Deadly Sins are. That really is a denomination-specific thing--the Catholic denomination to be specific. There is no discussion of the SDS or any other number of sins in my faith tradition.
Well, I mean it's a thread about sins. I hardly think bringing up the 7 deadly sins should be out of bounds. And I think in a round about way, that's kind of what peef was getting at
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:12 PM   #40
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Well, I mean it's a thread about sins. I hardly think bringing up the 7 deadly sins should be out of bounds. And I think in a round about way, that's kind of what peef was getting at
I wasn't saying it should be out of bounds. It's fine to discuss it. Heck, I'll Google what they are and contribute to the discussion myself.

I'm simply saying that assuming that all Christians buy into the Seven Deadly Sins would be a mistake. There's really one one domination of Christianity as far as I'm aware that officially subscribes to that list.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:17 PM   #41
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Okay, here they are:

wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy and gluttony

Seven deadly sins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think they could use some updated terms--who even uses the word sloth anymore? And wrath is very vague, as is pride. After all I'm sure we can all agree that "Pride (In the Name of Love)" is A-Okay (if perhaps overplayed. . .).

What makes them specifically so deadly? I dunno, I just don't really see a lot of value in narrowing sin down to a list of the Seven Deadly ones. Does all sin fall under these seven or are there other non-deadly sins--ones that just make you real sick or give you a splitting headache?
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:24 PM   #42
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who even uses the word sloth anymore?
I do

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Old 06-20-2012, 11:27 PM   #43
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^Don't let its cute appearance fool you. Sin!! Sin, I say!
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:01 AM   #44
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Is that the Slow Loris?
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:18 AM   #45
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No sir, this is a slow loris



but I know where this is going
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