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Old 09-01-2013, 10:27 AM   #46
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I'm so confused by this thread.

Is the US supposed to stay out of it and stop being the world's police, or are they the bad guys if they do nothing?

I'm confused by the posters I'm seeing in this thread and the sides of the issue they seem to be supporting...
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:45 AM   #47
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I think the prevailing sentiment in this thread is 'no, please don't, USA, you did not think this through very well.'
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:11 AM   #48
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And, of course, everyone else has.

No, wait, they haven't, because they have no responsibilities here whatsoever. But reserve the right to complain and point fingers after the fact.

I have no policy position to advocate. I genuinely don't know what to do. No one was a bigger critic in FYM than I when it came to GWB and the Iraq War. I don't see this as an analogous situation.

I can't see the enforcement of punishment for using chemical weapons against one's own people as a bad thing. It may defer future use by other countries. However, the elevation if Assad as some sort of victim of American firepower is also a bad thing.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
Syria did 9-11? Might want to check your history a bit.

Speaking of that, why would the terrorists have done 9-11 in the first place?

Oh yeah, maybe because the USA has been fucking around in the Middle East meddling in their affairs since the 50's.

Or it could just be because they hate our freedom, just like Bush said.
I was generalising the area.

But I agree with your other point, that the USA has been meddling in the middle east for far too long already. It's not helping, most likely doing more worse than good. So perhaps it's time to quit already. Let their Middle eastern brothers help them out for a change.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:35 AM   #50
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I was generalising the area.

But I agree with your other point, that the USA has been meddling in the middle east for far too long already. It's not helping, most likely doing more worse than good. So perhaps it's time to quit already. Let their Middle eastern brothers help them out for a change.


Middle Eastern countries are well known for their compassion towards their neighbors.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:51 AM   #51
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Yeah, and with all their oil they really are far too poor to intervene.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:16 PM   #52
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Yeah, and with all their oil they really are far too poor to intervene.

There is plenty of blame to go around here.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:33 PM   #53
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And, of course, everyone else has.

No, wait, they haven't, because they have no responsibilities here whatsoever. But reserve the right to complain and point fingers after the fact.

I have no policy position to advocate. I genuinely don't know what to do. No one was a bigger critic in FYM than I when it came to GWB and the Iraq War. I don't see this as an analogous situation.

I can't see the enforcement of punishment for using chemical weapons against one's own people as a bad thing. It may defer future use by other countries. However, the elevation if Assad as some sort of victim of American firepower is also a bad thing.
These are, for the most part, my feelings. I think I'm leaning somewhat pro-strike at the moment, but that's not because of any deep ideological feeling, but because it seems like a terrible option that's less bad than the other options. So I'll say bad things about the idea of a strike while still, in some sense, supporting it. I very well may be wrong in leaning pro-strike. This isn't a strongly held opinion.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:48 PM   #54
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And, of course, everyone else has.

No, wait, they haven't, because they have no responsibilities here whatsoever. But reserve the right to complain and point fingers after the fact.

I have no policy position to advocate. I genuinely don't know what to do. No one was a bigger critic in FYM than I when it came to GWB and the Iraq War. I don't see this as an analogous situation.

I can't see the enforcement of punishment for using chemical weapons against one's own people as a bad thing. It may defer future use by other countries. However, the elevation if Assad as some sort of victim of American firepower is also a bad thing.
Well said.

Especially this...

Quote:
because they have no responsibilities here whatsoever. But reserve the right to complain and point fingers after the fact.
The ever-present peanut gallery. Tiresome. I don't know what we should do either. It's a clusterfuck. But I do know I'm sick of hearing from the people that have the luxury of not having to make those tough decisions. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. You'd think any reasonably thoughtful person would understand that.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:49 PM   #55
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I do not like the fact that Assad gets labeled as a cruel oppressive dictator and that alone. A good half or more of his country supports him and lived happy lives before the civil war began.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:48 PM   #56
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I find it hard to determine how much support he has from his own populace. It is a small group of Alawites that dominate the Ba'athist party in Syria. By any measure he is a cruel oppressive dictator, a man who was never meant to rule, if not for his brother dying in a car crash, there is little to find redeeming about him, he might have made a good doctor at one stage, who knows. About 60% of the country is made up of Sunni's, while 12% is made up of the Alawites. I find it hard to imagine that this situation ever led there be a large body of support for Assad.
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:57 PM   #57
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I find it hard to determine how much support he has from his own populace. It is a small group of Alawites that dominate the Ba'athist party in Syria. By any measure he is a cruel oppressive dictator, a man who was never meant to rule, if not for his brother dying in a car crash, there is little to find redeeming about him, he might have made a good doctor at one stage, who knows. About 60% of the country is made up of Sunni's, while 12% is made up of the Alawites. I find it hard to imagine that this situation ever led there be a large body of support for Assad.
That's a gross oversimplification to simply break down religious demographics.

One must keep in mind all complex issues surrounding support. I don't want to get too bogged up in trying to define a real "percentage" of support, but it isn't a mere 12% of the nation supporting Assad. Remember, the working class people who enjoy the social society of life, the women who enjoy not having to wear a hijab under Islamic law, etc. etc.

Also, there's the collective group of minority Muslims and Christians in Syria who for the most part support the government. Perhaps not all of them, but there's a base.

Lastly, even though one might not support the actual Assad regime, there are several opposed to civil war and opposed to the rebels. That much is still true, even among the Sunni base. These include the peaceful protesters who paved the way for the militant opposition. Much like in Egypt, you have a strong collective nation who demanded Mubarak be removed from power, but the same people who had Mubarak removed from power were wishing that never happened and strongly opposed the Brotherhood and oppose militant action. There's a reason why 23 million took to the streets in peaceful protests in Egypt to remove Morsi, yet only a tiny fraction of that number shows up in arms to support Morsi.

It's complex, it's not black and white. Those who don't support Assad can be seen in several different aspects, many of whom "support" Assad NOW.
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:06 PM   #58
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I agree its not so black and white straight down the lines of the religious divide, but I would still contend that he probably doesn't have or ever had half the support of the country your previous post stated. What I think is more pertinent is that Assad simply had the support of his religious sect who held most of the power in the country, most people I imagine were never happy with that situation even if they were relatively passive about it.

I'm not trying to oversimplify the dynamics of support just responding to your initial oversimplification, that I find it unlikely he ever had a majority of support given the demographics of the country.

The rebels themselves are made up of secularists and islamists. Hence why this is a civil war more than anything else. We help the rebels win, I'd worry for the Alawites and the Christians in the region, if Assad wins, well things are not going to be very good for the Sunni majority and anyone who opposed him. Doesn't change the fact he is an awful human being and dictator no matter how stable he kept the country previously.

Plus that 23 millions Egyptians against Morsi I find very hard to believe to be true.
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:25 PM   #59
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I guess that was poorly worded on my part with "to the streets." Physical protesters is not what I meant, but rather voiced protesters.
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:37 PM   #60
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The 23 million number comes from what Tamarod claim they collected in signatures does it not? No one has ever verified that independently have they? As far as I am aware Tamarod have also declared their support for Assad, even after the chemical weapon use.

This is why I am wary of any intentions of the military government in Egypt, even as much as I am wary of the Mulim Brotherhood or the rebels in Syria.

Apologies to the mods, for bringing the Egyptian discussion into the Syrian thread, I do find there is a lot of cross over between both situations.
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