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Old 06-27-2012, 08:20 PM   #91
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Here's to hoping they're more exercised than they were in 2008.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:24 PM   #92
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the brain is a muscle.
It isn't, actually It's an organ comprised largely of nervous tissue

 
Just an excuse to be lazy
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:52 PM   #93
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It isn't, actually It's an organ comprised largely of nervous tissue

 
Just an excuse to be lazy
ironically, it's mostly composed of fat
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:58 PM   #94
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ironically, it's mostly composed of fat
Ya, I guess it is. There's a lot of myelin in there, which is mostly fat.

Maybe America has the right idea after all (nah, you've got to get your Omega-3 on)
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:56 PM   #95
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Re. university education, not to jump in an defend it because I often think it was a waste of time and money in some ways, but it did offer some general experiences that are valuable in the work environment. I don't think it can substitute for trade school or trade type training, but in college I was routinely forced to do a lot of things I'm still doing at work.... doing projects I might think are pointless, working in groups with people I don't necessarily like, managing time and resources, etc.
In a way college is a "safe" artificial environment for people to become more responsible, experiment, and explore adulthood. I feel as though there need to be more field-specific colleges. Basically, a trade school in that you only study one thing, but in a college-like environment.

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OK so we did some of that in high school but the level of maturity and professionalism was not really the same as what is required in college and at work.
But what about a people who went to work right after high school and got that experience on the job? 3-4 years in a professional environment makes a person grow a lot more than 3-4 years in a classroom.

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I will be honest, if I'm asked to be involved in hiring a new team member I rarely consider anyone without a BA, even though the work we do requires technical certifications you don't get with a liberal arts BA. The technical stuff is easy enough to train and our employer will help people get the certifications they need but the level of professionalism, maturity, and interpersonal skills goes above and beyond what people experience at a high school or GED level, and I'm not talking about a highly professional career either, I'm talking entry level $32K/yr job.
This is something I strongly disagree with. Liberal arts degrees don't promote professionalism, it's a playground to fool around in a bunch of different subjects without actually being serious about something. I'm someone that does freelance work on the side of my main job and I'm lucky to have the job that I do have (my job requires a serious amount of professionalism and etiquette).

I have spent the past 3 years being turned down because the employer thinks my lack of "education" makes me somehow less mature or professional than an inexperienced person fresh out of college. At my job I have to be professional or we could lose clients. My classes never required the level of professionalism I'm expected to have at my work.

When I was taking classes at a local community college I applied for a helpdesk technician position and was turned down because I didn't have a degree yet and was undeclared. They hired somebody else who had a degree. One semester later, I was in the lab working on a project when I watched the person they had hired instead of me fumbling like an idiot trying to fix a problem.

They'd had over 3 months of training at this point. They couldn't fix a simple problem with computers that I could fix when I was twelve. On top of that, the person was completely unprofessional and rude to the student they were helping. But they were more "qualified" so they got that job. IMO I don't think an entry level position should require someone to go into debt.

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But it isn't supposed to train you for that. I'm not sure why you think that these days university degrees are tied into job training. They most certainly are not.
No, they're not, but people are apparently incapable of doing these simple jobs without degrees.

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The reason that people tend to look at undergrad degrees even for secretarial positions (like we do when we hire legal assistants) is because if you have 10 equally good people competing who have a BA and maybe 4 who don't (because that's really a realistic ratio these days), then why wouldn't we go for the person with a BA who has 4 extra years of maturity, who has written major papers and we know with some degree of certainty is fairly literate and capable to do some critical thinking?
What about the person who has been doing other work and spent the same amount of time maturing? If they're the same age, "maturity" is not a logical way to rule them out. Those people that you are turning down might just be incredibly talented, mature, professional people that you're ruling out and judging because they don't have a degree.

Let's say I have to hire someone as a legal assistant or secretary. I have 10 choices, 6 with bachelor's degrees, 4 without. It is just as logical here to assume the people without degrees have had a much harder time finding work and will appreciate the job a lot more. Some people with BAs feel as though they're above doing that kind of work, so they'll slack off. People without BAs tend to know where they stand more often. I would consider the ones without the BAs first, looking into their experience, what they did in high school (were they involved in clubs? did they get good grades?), etc.

It is not always more logical to just grab the person with the degree.


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I think for the most part those that are feeling that university degrees are useless are probably approaching them incorrectly.
They are not useless.


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I think bad food being "cheaper" is about more than just the actual price of the ingredients. I'll admit I often get lazy and stop somewhere to "grab" something (not Big Macs though, usually some sort of sandwich that is made in front of me). For me it's not just the price of food but the "cost" of having to shop around for ingredients and the time it takes to make the food. Also right now with it often being about 100 degrees and humid which means 90 degrees inside the house, there's no way in hell I'm turning my *oven* on to cook meals and prefer not to use the gas stove either. It "costs" me less to just buy a cheap meal on the run because it doesn't involve any prep work or inconvenience to me. We have a really nice fresh market at the end of our block and have been shopping there a lot for fruits, salad stuff, and meats, but the food is really fresh, eat it within a day or two or its not good. It's hard for me to get into the habit of having to grocery shop every other day when I'm used to doing it once every other week. So yes it does come down to laziness which for me translates to the cost of my time and other factors that I often am not willing to deal with on a daily basis for every meal.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:04 PM   #96
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Here's to hoping they're more exercised than they were in 2008.


it's true. people voted for Grandpa Walnuts and Our Sarah out of dispassionate reason and pure intellect.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:06 PM   #97
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This is something I strongly disagree with. Liberal arts degrees don't promote professionalism, it's a playground to fool around in a bunch of different subjects without actually being serious about something.

oh ok. thanks for clearing that up with us who worked our tails off to get BAs from liberal arts colleges and make healthy salaries working 60 hours a week.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:19 PM   #98
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oh ok. thanks for clearing that up with us who worked our tails off to get BAs from liberal arts colleges and make healthy salaries working 60 hours a week.
The fact is that many of the people coming out of these degrees did not know what they wanted to do when they rushed into college. Most (not all, most) went for these degrees because they had no idea of what they wanted to do and were just going with what was expected of them. It's better to have a liberal arts degree than no degree! Right? That's why we have to get one! At least it's something! These people did not have the creativity to bust out and do something unique, were not smart enough to realize they didn't have to go to college and should wait until they knew what they wanted to do first, and they didn't have the talent in a specific field to pursue that field.

There's the occasional exception, but many businesses I know will throw applications with "liberal arts" degrees in the trash because of how unprofessional those graduates can be. We just recently fired someone with a liberal arts degree because they had no clue how to work in a professional environment. They need a college schedule dictating how they spent their time and when they suddenly had to plan things on their own... they couldn't.

The difference is when you encounter someone that wants to study many things, and usually those people will pick a specialty later on in life. The rare person who goes to college to learn. Perhaps I am guilty of generalizing here, so I should mention that I don't immediately judge someone for having that kind of degree. It's just something I see that's so common it's hard to separate the two. But unlike the stuck up people who refuse to consider someone without a degree professional, I will never rule out a person for a job based on their college education (whether they have it, what degree it's in, etc). I take the time to interview them, see their skills, look at what they've accomplished, and decide from there.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:25 PM   #99
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Erica the flaw is that the post seems to assume that undergrads don't work. I can only speak for myself but I worked three jobs throughout college, full time and some overtime every summer. I often skipped classes to work and my second half of college I only took classes two days a week and worked full days the other three days, plus afternoons the days I had class and other jobs for the evenings and weekends (my job job was for a dept. only open 8-5 but I was also a TA so I could revise, grade, and answer students' questions at any time). I got the job I have now because I've been on the team since I started as a student employee. I've been working for the same team for 10 years (I'm 27). I've worked my way through five promotions and am second in command (and would never want my boss' job! Way too political and I don't like to manage people, I like to get shit done). My husband worked second and third shift when he was finishing his teaching certificate. Sometimes I went 5 days without actually seeing him even though we were sleeping in the same bed.

High school involvement carries little weight for me personally because 1) it's highschool and 2) most of the stuff people do during that time largely depends on privilege and not actual skill or level of commitment. I don't know about you guys but I also worked through high school which did not leave time for all the fun clubs and extracurricular activities. I would have been on dozens of teams and crews and clubs if I had the time and the money.

At the time I often felt college was useless but the farther away it seems, the more useful it has become. Also I wouldn't take back the cost of tuition to give up the friends I made.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:29 PM   #100
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What about the person who has been doing other work and spent the same amount of time maturing? If they're the same age, "maturity" is not a logical way to rule them out. Those people that you are turning down might just be incredibly talented, mature, professional people that you're ruling out and judging because they don't have a degree.

Let's say I have to hire someone as a legal assistant or secretary. I have 10 choices, 6 with bachelor's degrees, 4 without. It is just as logical here to assume the people without degrees have had a much harder time finding work and will appreciate the job a lot more. Some people with BAs feel as though they're above doing that kind of work, so they'll slack off. People without BAs tend to know where they stand more often. I would consider the ones without the BAs first, looking into their experience, what they did in high school (were they involved in clubs? did they get good grades?), etc.

It is not always more logical to just grab the person with the degree.
Agree wholeheartedly with this. Getting a degree certainly has its benefits and I applaud people who work hard to earn such high honors. And there are things that sort of study can give you that will help you in the long run.

But the idea that people without degrees are presumed to be less mature or literate and may not have the skills to take on a job is just not true. Find someone within a line of work who can take on the role of teaching people the necessary skills and I think you could find out fairly quickly who's willing to learn and who has the skills necessary versus who isn't/doesn't.

Also, the laziness thing regarding food is spot on as well. You get off work at 9 pm, you just don't feel in the mood to throw together a legitimate meal, something quick and easy will do.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:40 PM   #101
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The fact is that many of the people coming out of these degrees did not know what they wanted to do when they rushed into college. Most (not all, most) went for these degrees because they had no idea of what they wanted to do and were just going with what was expected of them. It's better to have a liberal arts degree than no degree! Right? That's why we have to get one! At least it's something! These people did not have the creativity to bust out and do something unique, were not smart enough to realize they didn't have to go to college and should wait until they knew what they wanted to do first, and they didn't have the talent in a specific field to pursue that field.

There's the occasional exception, but many businesses I know will throw applications with "liberal arts" degrees in the trash because of how unprofessional those graduates can be. We just recently fired someone with a liberal arts degree because they had no clue how to work in a professional environment. They need a college schedule dictating how they spent their time and when they suddenly had to plan things on their own... they couldn't.

The difference is when you encounter someone that wants to study many things, and usually those people will pick a specialty later on in life. The rare person who goes to college to learn. Perhaps I am guilty of generalizing here, so I should mention that I don't immediately judge someone for having that kind of degree. It's just something I see that's so common it's hard to separate the two. But unlike the stuck up people who refuse to consider someone without a degree professional, I will never rule out a person for a job based on their college education (whether they have it, what degree it's in, etc). I take the time to interview them, see their skills, look at what they've accomplished, and decide from there.


well, based on this, i wouldn't hire you. so there's that?
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:41 PM   #102
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Erica the flaw is that the post seems to assume that undergrads don't work.
Oh, I'm not assuming that. I worked when I was in school, and so did my fiance (though he just did summer internships since his degree was very, very hard and required serious commitment). I'm just saying that someone with job experience should not be undervalued just because they didn't take a few classes.

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High school involvement carries little weight for me personally because 1) it's highschool and 2) most of the stuff people do during that time largely depends on privilege and not actual skill or level of commitment.
In high school I led the chess team through regional tournaments as the captain, actively wrote for the school newspaper, had articles published in the local magazines/papers, founded a technology club where I taught people the basics of computers and how to identify each type of hardware (it's still going to this day), and did part time work as a technician for the school's computer labs. I graduated in 3 years instead of four with half of my classes being independent studies with a single teacher giving me coursework. I was doubled up during the school day (no lunch) and taking online courses as well. Taking the time to organize and lead those clubs was invaluable experience for me, and serves as an example of high school experiences that are relevant. I even had to coordinate bus rental for off-school tournaments and getting teachers to come with us.

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At the time I often felt college was useless but the farther away it seems, the more useful it has become. Also I wouldn't take back the cost of tuition to give up the friends I made.
For me my feelings about school depended on the classes I was taking and the teachers I had. I don't regret taking the classes I did take. I will be going back to school in a few years (once they stop considering my dad's income). It's just that I think there is an over value on degrees and education. Many schools have subpar programs which my friends have had to suffer through. I don't think I've ever heard someone regret college when they came from a good school/good program but I have heard a lot of complaints about the average college.


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well, based on this, i wouldn't hire you. so there's that?
That's fine by me, I have no desire to work for someone that judges people for not finishing or going to college.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:58 PM   #103
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Give me someone smart, hardworking and ambitious who can read, think, and most especially write.

I will mold them into a great asset to my team in a way that I could never with people who decided to specialize when they were 18 and have oodles of technical experience but no ability to think big, different, and bold. Worker bees are great, but that's all you'll ever be unless you can engage on a higher level and make connections and take risks.
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Old 06-28-2012, 12:00 AM   #104
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That's fine by me, I have no desire to work for someone that judges people for not finishing or going to college.
But you're judging all people with liberal arts degrees as lazy, unprofessional, scatterbrains
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Old 06-28-2012, 12:09 AM   #105
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Give me someone smart, hardworking and ambitious who can read, think, and most especially write.

I will mold them into a great asset to my team in a way that I could never with people who decided to specialize when they were 18 and have oodles of technical experience but no ability to think big, different, and bold. Worker bees are great, but that's all you'll ever be unless you can engage on a higher level and make connections and take risks.
That's the thing, I don't think it's possible for someone to know what they want to do at 18. There's just too much pressure to go to college RIGHT AWAY and it's created a job market where it's nearly impossible for someone who's 18 and taking a year or two off to get a non-sales position. That's college's #1 flaw. There's such a negative stimuli associated with waiting for a few years when in reality there are tons of people in college who don't know what they're doing, or people who get screwed over financially because they change majors 3 years in.

You don't need college to be a brilliant writer, either (though I sure did love my literature/writing courses).

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But you're judging all people with liberal arts degrees as lazy, unprofessional, scatterbrains
Not really. It's my wording that makes me come off as abrasive. It was a counter to the notion that someone with a liberal arts degree is more professional than someone without any degree at all. I also NEVER said all, I clearly said some/most and even pointed out that there are exceptions to the rule and that I would never judge someone for having that kind of degree the way people seem to judge those without college degrees.
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