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Old 11-14-2015, 03:15 PM   #91
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.
well... that's not a completely fair article.

there's no doubt that race, religion, etc plays a part in the media's attention... but there's also, sadly, the expectation of violent things in certain parts of the world, regardless of the skin color of the victims.

A bus blowing up in Tel Aviv won't get nearly as much attention as one blowing up in Trafalgar Square.
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Old 11-14-2015, 03:45 PM   #92
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well... that's not a completely fair article.

there's no doubt that race, religion, etc plays a part in the media's attention... but there's also, sadly, the expectation of violent things in certain parts of the world, regardless of the skin color of the victims.

A bus blowing up in Tel Aviv won't get nearly as much attention as one blowing up in Trafalgar Square.


i tend to agree with this. "whatabout"-ism can only go so far.

but i think that's also why the three (arguably) greatest cities on earth -- NYC, London, Paris -- have come under direct attack. it draws our attention because it isn't supposed to happen there, and because those three cities are where most people, if they've traveled, want to travel to. i believe Paris is the most visited city in the world. i think that's some of the psychology behind it. the sense that it could happen to you, that's what they want to create.

i suppose it's like when a white girl goes missing in Aruba.
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Old 11-14-2015, 04:05 PM   #93
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How do we change a belief? Especially one that offers such a reward for causing so much harm to others outside of the faith?

Christianity went thru some civil war/fighting many years ago, but have since learned to stop and adapt more to a secular society (and the societies granted them freedom to express their faith). But those battles were done with such primitive weapons, less connection to the entire world...people on the other side of the world had little to fear of the crusades. That's not the same with ISIS. They have the means to strike almost anywhere, and with weapons to cause mass harm.

There are plenty of moderate to liberal Muslims in the world. The problem is we rarely hear their voices out of their own fear for safety.

Many holy books call for death for breaking rules, for being an enemy of the faith, but only one religion seems to follow through with it. How does the Muslim world fight back against such barbaric ideas and actions? Who stands up to them?

I don't see what kind of response the West can make here. You can't bomb people's beliefs. And you can't keep killing and invading thinking it will eliminate the bad apples. ISIS wants us to invade, wants more involvement so it can succeed in its own self fulfilling prophecy.

It's such a complicated issue. The humanitarian effort alone is more than most countries can handle. Do we just step aside and let the Muslim world kill itself till if figures out its extremist problem? Seems as though the extremists are already in power.

Just no clue


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Old 11-14-2015, 05:32 PM   #94
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It's such a complicated issue. The humanitarian effort alone is more than most countries can handle. Do we just step aside and let the Muslim world kill itself till if figures out its extremist problem? Seems as though the extremists are already in power.
That seems to ignore the geopolitics of the issue. The Russian plane bomb and the Beirut blasts didn't have much to do with faith imo.
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:02 PM   #95
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The problem it seems to me is that Muslin extremists are trying to goad a "pitiless" response that will kill a great deal of other Muslims. And the cycle will continue.
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:07 PM   #96
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.
It does.
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:39 PM   #97
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.
Whenever I read this sort of thing, it reminds me of this piece, which I think has a rather good point:

Impossible vanity of caring for everything at once

Quote:
In other words: you write about X, but what about Y and Z? You clearly don't care about them ... this charge is that one does not care about a particular issue because one has chosen to write about something else.

Since then, I have regularly noted this species of reply in conversation, newspaper commentary and on television. It seems a common feature of public and private debate. And it is almost always a mistake. It is unreasonable and frequently self-contradictory. I dub it the Fallacy of Inferred Insensitivity.

...

The point is that it is irrational to move, without evidence, from this focus to any one explanation for bias. It is poor reasoning; heavy on rhetoric, light on facts.

Ironically, the Fallacy of Inferred Insensitivity also demonstrates a curious lack of human sympathy. When confronted with some issue of ethical and political importance, the critic's first response is to reply with the long equivalent of, ''Yes, but ...''

It is not to empathise profoundly, demonstrate why it is not as it seems, or to pitch in and help. Instead, it is to point to all the other ethical or political problems in the world, and to vilify the speaker or author for ignoring them.

...

Sadly, there is always more cruelty, exploitation or misadventure. It waxes and wanes, but it seems endemic to existence.

So the question is not, ''Do we care?'' but, ''Is it humanly possible to care simultaneously about all of it, and to do so in a single speech, or piece of writing?'' And the answer is, of course, a very straightforward ''no''.
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:51 PM   #98
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It does.

I'm sorry about that. I understand how sensitive this is.

Given the Lebanese flag profile photos I'm starting to see on Facebook, it seems some people are comfortable talking about these things.

Reminds me of the "Je suis Ahmed" hashtag.
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:44 PM   #99
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You're welcome . And that story about your friend's daughter's school mate-yeow. Thank goodness she escaped.
thanks x

it was a young boy and he was there with his dad - cannot begin to imagine how terrifying it must have been to be in that situation with your child - both escaped thank goodness!

have since heard my daughter's schoolfriend was stuck on the metro just under Bastille during the shootings, utter panic and then got evacuated by the police, and then another friend of a friend was in a restaurant nearby which locked its doors and shutters when gunshots were heard nearby, and kept everyone inside until 3am when things had calmed down

tonight we ended up going out with frenchie friends as a sort of antidote even though i really didn't feel like going any where - went to a tiny local concert, followed by a restaurant, out in good company til after midnight, doing all the things that got attacked last night - we will fucking hold on to our freedoms

and i think re. Irvine's article, it's the shock factor - Paris, France, the concept is meant to be Liberte, Fraternite, Egalite, and thing is, we're just not used to "religious" wars here in this day and age (historically yes, but France battled that a loooong time ago, and its whole constitution is built around secularity because of its history of religious bloodshed) - i think it's the fact that IS want to bring the war out of the Middle East and into Europe - and what happened last night certainly feels like an act of war

we're a multicultural society, anything and everything goes, my daughter's school friends are a sweet mix of kids from all backgrounds atheists, catholics, protestants, Jews and Muslims, and that is meant to be acceptable here, we're meant to be tolerant, to co-exist and respect each other's beliefs and freedoms, live and let live

the extremists are trying to stoke up hatred amongst the French against the local Muslim communities, to divide France, and ostracise and radicalise the young - i just hope people can see thru this and hope that the far right will not gain any more ground and cause more damage - real worrying times and just have no idea what the future will bring

eta: articles like those that bring up the "colour" card are a little bit insulting - the author should take a trip to Paris and see how multicultural it is - Parisians of all different colours are reeling from these events right now
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:59 PM   #100
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i hope this doesn't feel "too soon," but i've seen some of this online, and it's sure to be part of the discussion post-Paris in the weeks to come.
It's definitely worth discussion, though I could have sworn I heard/read a different tone to the Beirut attacks when they were reported ie. labeling the particular area as a 'Hezbollah stronghold' which I found a bit distasteful.
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Old 11-15-2015, 04:44 AM   #101
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Well it's incredibly depressing how this has so quickly been appropriated to justify militaristic chest-thumping and harsh anti-refugee stances. When we should be coming together to look after each other, it's sad to see how the worst of some people is coming out. It's made me furious how often I've seen comments on my Facebook feed of "nuke them all!" (Actual quote, sigh.)
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
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Old 11-15-2015, 04:48 AM   #102
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I'd like to take a moment though to compliment this thread, on the whole. I've nothing to add (yet), but there is a notable contrast with the bloodthirsty rampage that was the 2001 9/11 threads. There is some hope for wiser voices prevailing, I think. Or at least maintaining a plurality.

Then again, maybe I'd be singing a different tune if Facebook didn't exist and hadn't siphoned off a ton of posters. Fortunately, I have no 'friends', so little risk of becoming blindsided.
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Old 11-15-2015, 04:58 AM   #103
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It's not just online nobodies though. Look at the way Poland immediately took this as a chance to try to wreck EU refugee policy.

I see Pauline Hanson has also been mouthing off, but fortunately I think she counts as a nobody these days.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 11-15-2015, 05:12 AM   #104
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Unfortunately she doesn't. Her post and the Today Show's post were both shared in excess of 10,000 times.

I struggle to find the right word to describe how I feel in these circumstances. "Harrowing" is about the closest I've come.
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:06 AM   #105
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I want to believe most of those shares were of the "look at this dickhead" variety.
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"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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