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Old 11-17-2015, 08:00 PM   #226
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but the bombing is the one biggest recruitment tool they have... no way! I respectfully disagree. These guys need to be annihilated end of story - most Muslims hate this group and it actually might help our reputation in the areaif we rid the earth of this scum.
Uh... how about responding to points 1, 2, 4 and 5 instead of ignoring them completely and hoping that bombing the shit out of them fixes it?

Bombing inevitably creates collateral damage. Innocent people die, leaving their loved ones to stew in the knowledge that western powers, no matter how noble their stated goals and no matter how much these innocent people disliked Daesh, killed their daughter/son/brother/sister/wife/husband/etc. If we just drop some bombs and then get the hell out of dodge, we create a vacuum for the next power-hungry assholes to come in and exploit the victims of our inevitable collateral damage.

Which is why I said in my original comment that if there is a military option their needs to be an immediate and vigorous humanitarian follow up, or we just perpetuate the whack-a-mole scenario we've found ourselves in.
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Old 11-17-2015, 09:58 PM   #227
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I don't think any nation has expressed a willingness to commit to ground troops to take on ISIS - bombing alone will not be effective.
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:15 PM   #228
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They are deeply religious and true to their beliefs.
Some of them may be. A few of the ones from Belgium seem to have more of a criminal/nonreligious element. One attacker was a bar owner whose bar was recently shut down because of drug dealing on the premises.
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:55 PM   #229
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I have heard that they're destroying many of mosques and things, thou. and some of them don't even mention God (well that kind of account may not be that credible, but). I don't know what they're really trying to achieve except for just destroying things for very immature reasons with very smudge of religion.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:21 AM   #230
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Then guarantee to smash the next branch and the one after that... keep whacking the mole


So we are all Israleis now?
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:06 AM   #231
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Some of them may be. A few of the ones from Belgium seem to have more of a criminal/nonreligious element. One attacker was a bar owner whose bar was recently shut down because of drug dealing on the premises.

I'm not disagreeing, but don't you think their "criminal" behavior is sort of part of what they're doing? Killing isn't okay in Islam. Except for (in this archaic interpretation that ISIS uses) killing people who oppose Islam.

Dealing drugs I'm sure is also in some facet against Islam. But I'm sure all they do is justify it by some clause with some crazy lunatic interpretation saying "it's okay to sin if it means I'm supporting the mujaheddin." And thus, they can still be deeply religious, and typical criminals dealing drugs.
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:27 AM   #232
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https://www.facebook.com/jrous92/vid...6190732035487/
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:48 AM   #233
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police raids in Saint Denis, Paris (near the Stade de France) in the night

3 police officers slightly wounded
2 terrorists killed including a woman wearing a suicide vest
at least 1 terrorist still holed up
3 arrested
schools, colleges, businesses closed
public transport to St Denis suspended


Paris attacks: suspects and 'mastermind' Abdel-Hamid Abu Oud holed up in Saint-Denis raid – live | World news | The Guardian

Quote:
St Denis raid: what we know so far

The police operation in St-Denis is ongoing, but here is what we currently know:

Heavy shooting, including automatic gunfire, and explosions have been reported in St Denis, a northern Paris suburb. St Denis is where the Stade de France, one of the targets of Friday’s attacks, is located, although the current operation is in the centre of the suburb, close to the basilica.
The targets of the raid are the mastermind of the Paris attacks, Abdel-Hamid Abu Oud; as well as Salah Abdeslam and another suspect thought to be a ninth attacker.
Two or three men are reported to have barricaded themselves in an apartment, exchanging gunfire with officers. It is not confirmed that these men are the suspects named above.
Shooting began at 4.30am local time (0330 GMT) and has continued in bursts in the hours since.
At least one police officer has been injured in the operation.
Roads have been closed off and the police operation is ongoing, with large numbers of police officers and police vehicles in the area. Military reinforcements have also arrived.
Residents have been told to stay in their homes and away from windows. Some have been moved to a temporary shelter in the town hall. Transport to St-Denis has been suspended and schools will not open on Wednesday.
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Old 11-18-2015, 07:21 AM   #234
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Uh... how about responding to points 1, 2, 4 and 5 instead of ignoring them completely and hoping that bombing the shit out of them fixes it?

Bombing inevitably creates collateral damage. Innocent people die, leaving their loved ones to stew in the knowledge that western powers, no matter how noble their stated goals and no matter how much these innocent people disliked Daesh, killed their daughter/son/brother/sister/wife/husband/etc. If we just drop some bombs and then get the hell out of dodge, we create a vacuum for the next power-hungry assholes to come in and exploit the victims of our inevitable collateral damage.

Which is why I said in my original comment that if there is a military option their needs to be an immediate and vigorous humanitarian follow up, or we just perpetuate the whack-a-mole scenario we've found ourselves in.
UHHHH <---see what I did there?

I never said to not do the humanitarian part after the bombing but to allow this group to keep on doing this with impunity is not right. To me it sounds like your more worried about the collateral damage/innocents of the da'esh region than the innocents that went out on a Friday night for dinner, concert maybe a soccer match. These animals are are atrgeting the very way of life that we hold most dear.... it's been 25 years of trying to understand them and prop them up but at some point we have to draw a line and I think it's right here right now. (doing that UHHH thing really didn't make me feel any better).
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Old 11-18-2015, 07:59 AM   #235
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UHHHH <---see what I did there?



I never said to not do the humanitarian part after the bombing but to allow this group to keep on doing this with impunity is not right. To me it sounds like your more worried about the collateral damage/innocents of the da'esh region than the innocents that went out on a Friday night for dinner, concert maybe a soccer match. These animals are are atrgeting the very way of life that we hold most dear.... it's been 25 years of trying to understand them and prop them up but at some point we have to draw a line and I think it's right here right now. (doing that UHHH thing really didn't make me feel any better).

How did anything he said amount to caring about one innocent over another? You're not making sense. According to your logic; revenge bombing will somehow show worry about those innocents that went to a concert even if you take out more innocents. So then who will revenge those innocents? Basically you're just wanting to match their barbarianism.


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Old 11-18-2015, 08:22 AM   #236
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To me it sounds like your more worried about the collateral damage/innocents of the da'esh region than the innocents that went out on a Friday night for dinner, concert maybe a soccer match.

Again you miss the point. Just so we're clear, I'm worried about all innocent life, whether it's people like you and me or poor Arab families in Iraq and Syria.

Advocating for a more cautious approach that places a high priority on humanitarian efforts that attempt to address the root causes behind the success of Islamist extremism's recruitment efforts will save more western lives than your preferred scorch the earth/bomb them to hell approach.

Responding to terrorist acts like this with a scorch the earth approach is exactly what the terrorists want us to do.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:34 AM   #237
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I think you and BVS are correct-I don't think I'm getting my point across right.... it's my belief that we have been over-cautious and extremely cerebral about our approach to this but in my mind it hasn't worked, they are still bombing and taking out innocent lives. The invasion of Iraq was a massive blunder and I feel we kinda bombed first without thinking of any exit strategies or realized what a huge vacuum and destabilizing force the invasion would cause. With that said, ISIS is a bit different than AQ in the way they pull these things off with seeming impunity. While agreeing with you with the trying better to understand the root-cause of all of this fundamentalism these guys should be punished and not with carpet bombing but with strategic targets and possibly hitting them monetarily and sanctions and the like.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:31 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Bombing inevitably creates collateral damage. Innocent people die, leaving their loved ones to stew in the knowledge that western powers, no matter how noble their stated goals and no matter how much these innocent people disliked Daesh, killed their daughter/son/brother/sister/wife/husband/etc. If we just drop some bombs and then get the hell out of dodge, we create a vacuum for the next power-hungry assholes to come in and exploit the victims of our inevitable collateral damage.
Sticking my idealistic nose in for a moment to say I totally agree with you. What it boils down to is this, in the words of Michael Franti: " You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it in to peace." So true. We have to be more than a war machine, we have to change the thinking and shift the paradigm of those sad sick souls preoccupied with death and destruction. So the biggest question of all is how the hell do we do that? I don't have any answers. It will take decades to change the thinking of the children.
But I will say this, I love the measured response by President Obama. It's refreshing to have a president who actually is hesitant put more boots on the ground and send more of our kids there to die in the name of "doing something" and revenge.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:42 AM   #239
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:45 AM   #240
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I think you and BVS are correct-I don't think I'm getting my point across right.... it's my belief that we have been over-cautious and extremely cerebral about our approach to this but in my mind it hasn't worked, they are still bombing and taking out innocent lives. The invasion of Iraq was a massive blunder and I feel we kinda bombed first without thinking of any exit strategies or realized what a huge vacuum and destabilizing force the invasion would cause. With that said, ISIS is a bit different than AQ in the way they pull these things off with seeming impunity. While agreeing with you with the trying better to understand the root-cause of all of this fundamentalism these guys should be punished and not with carpet bombing but with strategic targets and possibly hitting them monetarily and sanctions and the like.
No, we understand that. You are getting your point across. Your point just seems extremely reactionary and not all that well thought out.

As was said before: we are in a no-win situation. They have a major persecution complex (as do pretty much all religious fanatics). They believe we need to be destroyed because we are threatening their way of life, and us attacking them is proof. It IS a recruitment tool, no matter what anyone tries to tell you to the contrary. It's the sort of thing that keeps something like ISIS going. If we don't bomb them, they'll continue. If we do bomb them, they'll continue.
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