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Old 11-17-2015, 05:54 PM   #211
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Is ISIS really the Islam fundamentalism or just "everything should be fucking destroyed" -ism?
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:00 PM   #212
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If I were NATO, the UN, interested parties, I would first work on creating a safe zone for refugees in coastal Northwestern Syria (currently controlled by the Assad regime). Work diplomatically to get a 30-50 square mile zone in this area. Use UN/NATO troops to safeguard the interior. It wouldn't border ISIS or rebel controlled areas.

From this staging point we can ship food medical supplies. Give the refugees everything they need to stay put and not risk their lives trying to get to Greece by sea.

Hopefully it will give Western Governments time to catch their collective breaths. Set up screening processes and make for a more orderly exit for those suffering.

The US already has an intense screening process. They go through a minimum of 10 government agencies. If one would take the time to turn Hannity or Rush off for 10 min and read a real article and not all of this bullshit I see vomited on Facebook they would know this.

It's propaganda, fear, and xenophobia; plain and simple.


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Old 11-17-2015, 06:08 PM   #213
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The US already has an intense screening process. They go through a minimum of 10 government agencies. If one would take the time to turn Hannity or Rush off for 10 min and read a real article and not all of this bullshit I see vomited on Facebook they would know this.

It's propaganda, fear, and xenophobia; plain and simple.


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I've gotten to the point where I usually just ignore you. Everybody knows your game. My post was a legitimate idea not just for the sake of the US, France, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, Germany but most importantly the refugees themselves. For you its "Oh look, Oregoropa, posted something, let me shit on it, without taking the time to read it and understand the context"
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:10 PM   #214
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AQ was a bit more political in their demands. Still rooted in Islam
Ouch.

Even though Al Qaeda might have seemed like the Mickey Mouse version of what ISIS is pulling off today, saying they were "still rooted in Islam" is just wrong. Political or not, nowhere in Islam does it say "hijack a plane and fly into a tower to destroy innocent lives"...

Al Qaeda seem like old news but I think no one should make the mistake to picture them as more reasonable or rational. They are/were also just a terroristic organisation who have very little to do with Islam or any other worldly religion for that matter.
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:14 PM   #215
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Is ISIS really the Islam fundamentalism or just "everything should be fucking destroyed" -ism?
More the latter, I think.

I like how you put that.
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:22 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
I've gotten to the point where I usually just ignore you. Everybody knows your game. My post was a legitimate idea not just for the sake of the US, France, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, Germany but most importantly the refugees themselves. For you its "Oh look, Oregoropa, posted something, let me shit on it, without taking the time to read it and understand the context"

Sorry, my tone was a little harsh. It wasn't aimed towards you, but the right in general. The Breitbart and other bs I see being posted on FB makes my skin crawl.

That being said, I don't think a 50 square foot easy target is a viable solution.


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Old 11-17-2015, 06:36 PM   #217
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the problem, though, with destroying ISIS is that death inspires more recruits. the West could carpet bomb for weeks, all those assholes could be vaporized, and some kid living in a Brussels suburb sees it on TV and straps a bomb to his chest, runs into Gare de Nord, and derails a train heading to Lille.

i realize that's not helpful, and a criticism without a solution. i have no solution. i just think that there's no "wipe them out, all of them." what we're dealing with here are the children of Bin Laden, young men with no jobs and no sex and no future who grew up in the aftermath of 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. how do we stamp that out? that which drives angry young men to extremist utopian visions of life?

it's so depressing.
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The thing is, while Daesh* might be a slightly new flavor of terrorist extremism, just bombing the hell out of them and wiping them off the face of the planet is not going to address the fundamental problem, and will, in fact, guarantee the rise of the next branch. There have been interviews done with some of the Daesh fighters, and many of them are NOT actually devout Muslims with a strong fundamental understanding of their faith. They're disillusioned youth who were treated badly under US-backed Al-Maliki in Iraq, and youth who are especially vulnerable to fall under the spell of people who give them a sense of (violent, retributive) purpose and the veneer of being sanctioned by God.

We're not going to end this kind of extreme terrorism until we start doing something real about the "hearts and minds" of every day people in these middle Eastern countries. We simply can't expect a military approach to work unless it is paired with a humanitarian approach that is just as strong if not more so. It's easy as shit to bomb bad guys. It's a lot more difficult to give people hope and access to things that improve their lives in a meaningful way. But that's the only way we stand a chance of eradicating this Islamist extremism. Until that gets addressed it's just going to be whack-a-mole.

*The assholes formely known as ISIS
a million times yes to these posts.

imo fundamentalism like this is part of the human condition. you can bomb the shit out of Da'ish strongholds in the middle East if you want. but you destroy Da'ish (and kill who knows how many innocent civilians) and another insane terrorist group will rise up and take its place.

Watched this this morning. Harrowing stuff. Towards the end a shy 6yo kid beams as he proudly declares he wants to be a suicide bomber when he grows up. It points to what Irvine is talking about, no-hopers growing up knowing only war. They are also anti-Da'ish.

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Old 11-17-2015, 06:38 PM   #218
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Sorry, my tone was a little harsh. It wasn't aimed towards you, but the right in general. The Breitbart and other bs I see being posted on FB makes my skin crawl.

That being said, I don't think a 50 square foot easy target is a viable solution.


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Ok buddy. I accept your apology
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:47 PM   #219
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Ok buddy. I accept your apology

Thanks


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Old 11-17-2015, 06:47 PM   #220
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Further to Diemen's point about a solution that might actually work... Arab Spring activist Iyad El-Baghdadi says the same thing - people won't like those solutions because they aren't "sexy" or quick.

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Old 11-17-2015, 07:14 PM   #221
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what solutions are they suggesting cobl?

Hollande doesn't really have much choice right now - if he doesn't go after them, he will be seen as weak at home (already is seen as weak and ineffectual), so he has to act decisively as a strong leader, especially with Le Pen baying for blood - regional elections here soon, so really tricky timing politics-wise... and France cannot afford to give any more ground to the FN as if they were to get into power, then we surely would get the civil war IS are supposedly looking for...

not sure we're looking at a solution as such, possibly more the lesser of two evils...
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Old 11-17-2015, 07:19 PM   #222
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Oh I'm not really sure, I don't really know enough. Just saying that Headache's line of thinking doesn't hit the mark. Bombing is a sexy solution and we're attracted to it for its taboo thrill of violence, but will it really work?
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Old 11-17-2015, 07:20 PM   #223
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Old 11-17-2015, 07:38 PM   #224
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Is ISIS really the Islam fundamentalism or just "everything should be fucking destroyed" -ism?
Considering what ISIS believes in to not be Islam, because we don't want to be insulting to other Muslims is exactly why we've butchered our response to them in every which way.

It is Islam. In the same way that Hasid's are Jews (without the beheading and all), or why Evangelical Christians believe that God invented the world in literally 7 days and the Flintstones was a documentary.

Just because the majority of rational thinking people that practice the same religions don't agree doesn't make them any less religious. They are deeply religious and true to their beliefs.

That's what is so frightening about them. They are driven by what they believe in. They've gone to great lengths to capture cities that have otherwise zero strategic value only because of their importance in what they believe is the coming of the end times.


When I say they need to be destroyed, I don't mean just carpet bomb them into rubble. I mean a global coalition the likes we haven't seen maybe ever. NATO, Russian, Arab forces all fighting together... while at the same time continuing larger "hearts and minds" type missions throughout the rest of the Muslim world... starting with education.

Will wiping ISIS out be the end of the global fight against terrorism? Of course not. But they need to be destroyed. Then we can go back to strategic attacks, intelligence gathering to stop further attacks, and most importantly, working to change the "hearts and minds."

But these fuckers are different. They must be dealt with. And now.
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Old 11-17-2015, 07:56 PM   #225
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Shooting/Terrorism in Paris

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Originally Posted by mirrorballman View Post
Ouch.



Even though Al Qaeda might have seemed like the Mickey Mouse version of what ISIS is pulling off today, saying they were "still rooted in Islam" is just wrong. Political or not, nowhere in Islam does it say "hijack a plane and fly into a tower to destroy innocent lives"...



Al Qaeda seem like old news but I think no one should make the mistake to picture them as more reasonable or rational. They are/were also just a terroristic organisation who have very little to do with Islam or any other worldly religion for that matter.


I wasn't saying AQ was a Micky Mouse version, I was just saying they weren't as hardline death cultish as ISIS. Osama had the worlds largest porn collection, I mean...come on. They were more your standard terrorist group in that they wanted more than just destruction.

And of course there's no passage about flying a plane into a building. How could there be? But, there are passages in the Koran/Hadith about killing infidels. How they do it really doesn't matter.

I guess ISIS really isn't true Islam because they'd attack us with swords and rocks these guns are technically innovation from the time of the prophet and therefore that makes them enemies of Islam too....

We need to entire world to buck up and squash this threat together. Doesn't matter if you're Russian, Chinese, or Saudi....we are all targets to these people.


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