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Old 11-17-2015, 04:28 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
This group is driven by a deep, ancient fundamentalist version of Islam. They won't stop.

This isn't your normal middle eastern terrorist group. They won't back down if we stop meddling in the region. They're not angry over Israel (well they are, but not only). They're obsessed with the apocalypse and bringing about the end times.

They must be dealt with.

We need smarter long term plans to deal with the middle East and terrorism in general. Yes. True.

ISIS isn't that. They're something different. And they're not stopping unless we stop them.

Driving ISIS off the face of the earth may actually go further to help our reputation in the middle east. This isn't like al Qaeda, where the Middle Eastern countries say they hate them but secretly find them through back channels. This isn't Hezbollah. These countries hate ISIS as much as we do, if not more so.

I generally agree with the "lets stop fucking around over there and creating more enemies than that of which we kill" way of combating terrorism.

Not in this case. Not with them.

They need to be destroyed.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:34 PM   #197
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the problem, though, with destroying ISIS is that death inspires more recruits. the West could carpet bomb for weeks, all those assholes could be vaporized, and some kid living in a Brussels suburb sees it on TV and straps a bomb to his chest, runs into Gare de Nord, and derails a train heading to Lille.

i realize that's not helpful, and a criticism without a solution. i have no solution. i just think that there's no "wipe them out, all of them." what we're dealing with here are the children of Bin Laden, young men with no jobs and no sex and no future who grew up in the aftermath of 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. how do we stamp that out? that which drives angry young men to extremist utopian visions of life?

it's so depressing.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:36 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
This group is driven by a deep, ancient fundamentalist version of Islam. They won't stop.

This isn't your normal middle eastern terrorist group. They won't back down if we stop meddling in the region. They're not angry over Israel (well they are, but not only). They're obsessed with the apocalypse and bringing about the end times.

They must be dealt with.

We need smarter long term plans to deal with the middle East and terrorism in general. Yes. True.

ISIS isn't that. They're something different. And they're not stopping unless we stop them.

Driving ISIS off the face of the earth may actually go further to help our reputation in the middle east. This isn't like al Qaeda, where the Middle Eastern countries say they hate them but secretly find them through back channels. This isn't Hezbollah. These countries hate ISIS as much as we do, if not more so.

I generally agree with the "lets stop fucking around over there and creating more enemies than that of which we kill" way of combating terrorism.

Not in this case. Not with them.

They need to be destroyed.
The thing is, while Daesh* might be a slightly new flavor of terrorist extremism, just bombing the hell out of them and wiping them off the face of the planet is not going to address the fundamental problem, and will, in fact, guarantee the rise of the next branch. There have been interviews done with some of the Daesh fighters, and many of them are NOT actually devout Muslims with a strong fundamental understanding of their faith. They're disillusioned youth who were treated badly under US-backed Al-Maliki in Iraq, and youth who are especially vulnerable to fall under the spell of people who give them a sense of (violent, retributive) purpose and the veneer of being sanctioned by God.

We're not going to end this kind of extreme terrorism until we start doing something real about the "hearts and minds" of every day people in these middle Eastern countries. We simply can't expect a military approach to work unless it is paired with a humanitarian approach that is just as strong if not more so. It's easy as shit to bomb bad guys. It's a lot more difficult to give people hope and access to things that improve their lives in a meaningful way. But that's the only way we stand a chance of eradicating this Islamist extremism. Until that gets addressed it's just going to be whack-a-mole.

*The assholes formely known as ISIS
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:36 PM   #199
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The football game of the Netherlands and Germany tonight has been cancelled. There was a major bomb threat, the entire stadium was emptied. This is getting far too close. Shit.


And damn, the Mannschaft must be pretty traumatised after Paris and now this. Seems like the terrorists hate the German team.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:38 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
The thing is, while Daesh* might be a slightly new flavor of terrorist extremism, just bombing the hell out of them and wiping them off the face of the planet is not going to address the fundamental problem, and will, in fact, guarantee the rise of the next branch. There have been interviews done with some of the Daesh fighters, and many of them are NOT actually devout Muslims with a strong fundamental understanding of their faith. They'redisillusioned youth who were treated badly under US-backed Al-Maliki in Iraq, and youth who are especially vulnerable to fall under the spell of people who give them a sense of (violent, retributive) purpose and the veneer of being sanctioned by God.

We're not going to end this kind of extreme terrorism until we start doing something real about the "hearts and minds" of every day people in these middle Eastern countries. We simply can't expect a military approach to work unless it is paired with a humanitarian approach that is just as strong if not more so. It's easy as shit to bomb bad guys. It's a lot more difficult to give people hope and access to things that improve their lives in a meaningful way. But that's the only way we stand a chance of eradicating this Islamist extremism. Until that gets addressed it's just going to be whack-a-mole.
Then guarantee to smash the next branch and the one after that... keep whacking the mole
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:40 PM   #201
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Then guarantee to smash the next branch and the one after that... keep whacking the mole
Wow did you miss the point.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:41 PM   #202
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Shooting/Terrorism in Paris

What, now there's going to be one major threat per day?
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:48 PM   #203
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So you're saying just a constant state of war and intervention?

I agree with Headache for a lot of it. ISIS is a different breed than AQ. AQ was a bit more political in their demands. Still rooted in Islam, but wanted more, or had aspirations to gain.

ISIS wants death, even for themselves eventually.

I think you have special forces (from all countries) to take out their leadership, use the Muslim community to try and sway the minds of those who are easily influenced by promises of ISIS, and then see if a moderate voice can lead that region and spread throughout.

But just bombing the shit out of them will create more chaos for the rest of the world.

ISIS I feel has already won. They've played right into the fear/fascism aspect of our political system. Pretty much every GOP candidate, congressman, Gov has stated they want nothing to do with Syrians, even going as far to require a religious test to enter the country. and of course there's the McCain war machine firing up (we fight them there, or we fight them here)

Seems to play into the narrative that the West hates Muslims.

It's such a bad, bad situation. But we can't let fear dictate our actions. I am for some military action, but there has to be more to change people's minds on this perverted outlook that these terror groups have.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:50 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Galeongirl View Post
The football game of the Netherlands and Germany tonight has been cancelled. There was a major bomb threat, the entire stadium was emptied. This is getting far too close. Shit.


And damn, the Mannschaft must be pretty traumatised after Paris and now this. Seems like the terrorists hate the German team.
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Been stuck in my sweet nabe (obligations) without Net till i could finally leave today

Been thinking of everyone

the poor 99.8% of innocent refugees now having more trouble being let in to safe havens

im glad its seems (no time to go thru all thread) that people here who know people there are safe!

and now attacks against particularly vulnerable Muslim women ( im guessing a combo of skin color and some kind of headscarf as trigger visuals)

"just" harrowing as someone posted here
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:56 PM   #205
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Wow did you miss the point.
1 appeasement works right?
2 talks and coalitions have worked correct?
3 and your feeling that the bombing will just continue to be a recruitment tool?
4 that the sheer poverty and subjugation these people live in everyday while the west is "living large" isn't a big enough recruitment tool?
5 the incredibly stupid idea of the US killing Saddam and trying to country-build and prop a government that had no shot in hell of working that isn't the largest recruitment tool?

but the bombing is the one biggest recruitment tool they have... no way! I respectfully disagree. These guys need to be annihilated end of story - most Muslims hate this group and it actually might help our reputation in the areaif we rid the earth of this scum.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:56 PM   #206
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We're not going to end this kind of extreme terrorism until we start doing something real about the "hearts and minds" of every day people in these middle Eastern countries.
don't forgot many if not most of the every day people in the Middle East don't want ISIS/Daesch and their wrecking ball either...
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:59 PM   #207
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Seems like the terrorists hate the German team.

In that case this might be some of the German hating pricks from our own country. You know they are out there. This is just a sick joke probably.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:02 PM   #208
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So you're saying just a constant state of war and intervention?

I agree with Headache for a lot of it. ISIS is a different breed than AQ. AQ was a bit more political in their demands. Still rooted in Islam, but wanted more, or had aspirations to gain.

ISIS wants death, even for themselves eventually.

I think you have special forces (from all countries) to take out their leadership, use the Muslim community to try and sway the minds of those who are easily influenced by promises of ISIS, and then see if a moderate voice can lead that region and spread throughout.

But just bombing the shit out of them will create more chaos for the rest of the world.

ISIS I feel has already won. They've played right into the fear/fascism aspect of our political system. Pretty much every GOP candidate, congressman, Gov has stated they want nothing to do with Syrians, even going as far to require a religious test to enter the country. and of course there's the McCain war machine firing up (we fight them there, or we fight them here)

Seems to play into the narrative that the West hates Muslims.

It's such a bad, bad situation. But we can't let fear dictate our actions. I am for some military action, but there has to be more to change people's minds on this perverted outlook that these terror groups have.
So it's your belief that we HAVEN'T been in a state of war since the first attack on the WTC? I think that encapsulates the biggest problem the west has faced - we're in a war and don't even realize it.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:09 PM   #209
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Seems to play into the narrative that the West hates Muslims.

It's such a bad, bad situation. But we can't let fear dictate our actions. I am for some military action, but there has to be more to change people's minds on this perverted outlook that these terror groups have.
there was a lovely French video online today, a proper French Parisian bourgeoise grannie, who had a complete rant - was awesome and went viral

basically saying it is very important that we continue to bring flowers to pay tribute to our lost ones and that we read over and over Hemingway's A Moveable Feast, because France is a very ancient civilisation and we treasure our values, and we will continue to fraternize with the 5 million Muslims who practice their religion freely and peacefully here, and we will fight the 10 000 barbarians who kill supposedly in Allah's name.

the West has to make the distinction between Muslims and these few extremists who are trying to hijack their religion...
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:33 PM   #210
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If I were NATO, the UN, interested parties, I would first work on creating a safe zone for refugees in coastal Northwestern Syria (currently controlled by the Assad regime). Work diplomatically to get a 30-50 square mile zone in this area. Use UN/NATO troops to safeguard the interior. It wouldn't border ISIS or rebel controlled areas.

From this staging point we can ship food medical supplies. Give the refugees everything they need to stay put and not risk their lives trying to get to Greece by sea.

Hopefully it will give Western Governments time to catch their collective breaths. Set up screening processes and make for a more orderly exit for those suffering.
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