Scientologists aren't any weirder than you are

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to be fair to the Travoltas, this is from TMZ:

(i posted this in ZS)

John Travolta's Son: Meds Ultimately Did Harm

Posted Jan 4th 2009 12:29PM by TMZ Staff

TMZ has learned more about the medical condition of John Travolta's son, Jett, and the medication that ultimately didn't work.

We're now told the grand mal seizures Jett suffered were "frequent and extremely serious." Travolta's lawyers, Michael Ossi and Michael McDermott, tell us "each seizure was like a death," with Jett losing consciousness and convulsing.

We now know Jett was taking a drug called Depakote, a strong anti-seizure medication. There have been reports Travolta refused to give his son anti-seizure meds because of Scientology but those stories are not true.

Jett had been having seizures on an average of every four days, until he started taking Depakote. Ossi and McDermott say the drug initially worked, reducing the frequency to approximately once every three weeks.

Jett took Depakote for "several years," but it eventually lost its effectiveness, according to Ossi and McDermott. They say the Travoltas were concerned about possible physical damage. And, Jett went back to having around one seizure a week. So Travolta and Preston, after consulting neurosurgeons, stopped administering the drug. No one is suggesting withdrawal of the medicine in any way caused the fatal episode.



i also just returned from vacation where i visited a friend from college. less than 3 years after graduation, she awoke with a splitting headache and then collapsed in the shower that morning. her roommates had the presence of mind to quickly call an ambulance and that probably saved her life. she was in a coma for 2 weeks and it was determined that she had a major stroke. she spent a few years in a wheelchair and had to re-learn nearly everything we take for granted (addition, telling time, the alphabet, etc.) she's doing well and improving and manages to walk on her own with some assistance, but it's absolutely shocking to see what a brain malfunction can do to a healthy, very bright, then 25 year old. no warning, no prior health problems, nothing.
 
My mother was 71 when she had her brain injury last year, but a completely healthy and vibrant 71-year-old who still taught college and adult-ed classes, walked up to several miles a day, was an accomplished sculptress and had a full and happy existence living on her own. Then this stupid freak accident happens, and all at once (and permanently) she's mentally and emotionally like a toddler. I'm her guardian now, and have more or less reconciled myself to the fact that the person I knew for 37 years is effectively dead and there's no point in looking for her anymore, but sometimes when she doesn't seem to recognize me and care that I'm there, or yells inarticulately and thrashes her fists at me for some perceived minor offense I can't even figure out, the whole situation feels so cruel and surreal; she never feared physical suffering, but I know she'd never have wanted to live like this. If she doesn't live to be very old it will be a blessing, but she remains physically very healthy, so she might well. Ironically, Depakote is one of the drugs I had it out with the psychiatrist assigned to her case over (still not exactly sure why she was on it, but lots of elderly people are; I think basically 'to reduce agitation'); they've taken her off it now, and she is more alert and, ironically, less grumpy as well.

That's a sad story about the Travolta boy; his condition sounds vaguely like that of a young man one of my brothers was sort of a nanny to for awhile--he also had chronic (though I think mostly minor) seizures, and apparently as a result of years of them, was really no longer mentally competent and needed a 'minder' with him everywhere he went. I don't really understand what if anything the connection of Kawasaki syndrome to it is supposed to be, that has nothing to do with seizures so far as I know, but it sounds like a heartbreakingly sad story.
 
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The South Park episode on Scientology summed it up nicely

I cant stand religions where people go out and try and convert others

I get pestered by Christian Union all the time - i politley tell them i dont believe in Jesus and that seems to make them go away
 
Actually even if one takes the 'religion is all nonsense' tack, there is a distinct difference. As others have pointed out, a science fiction writer in the 1950s basically wrote his own religion for a lark.

The long-standing world religions have evolved with and through human culture over millenia. Even if not scientifically 'true' (hardly the point), there is a lot more to them than a guy just makin' shit up.

Religions, interestingly, evolve organically. how ironic. But true. There would have been no Christianity if there had not first been Judaism. And its spiritual precursors. Yeah, just not the same as L. Ron Hubbard writing a religion for fun and profit.

I think Scientology has at least as much in common with multi-level marketing as it does with 'religion'.

I agree. :up:

Are there any great Scientologist philosophers like in other major religions?
 
[q]For the Love of Xenu

By Mark Oppenheimer

Scientology, the controversial religion whose adherents include John Travolta, Tom Cruise, and Jenna Elfman, can't seem to stay out of the news. Sometimes the church would rather not have the publicity, as when Germany, which considers Scientology a cult, recently refused to let Tom Cruise shoot scenes for his new movie in government buildings. Other times, Scientologists court the attention—as when the same Mr. Cruise brought his Scientology-influenced anti-psychiatry crusade to the Today show in 2005.

Some Americans may consider Scientology perhaps a cult, maybe a violent sect, and certainly very weird. And, like many, I find the Church of Scientology odd, to say the least. But Scientology is no more bizarre than other religions. And it's the similarities between Scientology and, say, Christianity and Judaism that make us so uncomfortable. We need to hate Scientology, lest we hate ourselves.

[...]

My podcast and article were not meant to attack Scientology. Not every article about a Catholic mentions the church's pederasty scandals or its suborning of fascism under Hitler and Franco. An article about Yom Kippur observance in Hackensack need not ask Jews for their views of illegal West Bank settlements. All religious groups have something to answer for, but religion writing would be quite tedious, not to mention unilluminating, if every article were reduced to the negative charges against some co-religionists.

But when it comes to Scientology, there's a hunger for the negative. I suspect that's because Scientology evinces an acute case of what Freud called the narcissism of small differences: We're made most uncomfortable by that which is most like us. And everything of which Scientology is accused is an exaggerated form of what more "normal" religions do. Does Scientology charge money for services? Yes—but the average Mormon, tithing 10 percent annually, pays more money to his church than all but the most committed Scientologists pay to theirs. Jews buying "tickets" to high-holiday services can easily part with thousands of dollars a year per family. Is Scientology authoritarian and cultlike? Yes—but mainly at the higher levels, which is true of many religions. There may be pressure for members of Scientology's elite "Sea Organization" not to drop out, but pressure is also placed on Catholics who may want to leave some cloistered orders. Does Scientology embrace pseudoscience? Absolutely—but its "engrams" and "E-meter" are no worse than what's propagated by your average Intelligent Design enthusiast. In fact, its very silliness makes it less pernicious.

And what about the "Xenu" creation myth anti-Scientologists are so fond of? Scientologists have promised me that it is simply not part of their theology—some say they learned about Xenu from South Park. Several ex-Scientologists have sworn the opposite. Given his frequent conflation of science fiction, theology, and incoherent musings, I think that Hubbard may have taught that eons ago, the galactic warlord Xenu dumped 13.5 trillion beings in volcanoes on Earth, blowing them up and scattering their souls. But I'm not sure that it is an important part of Scientology's teachings. And if Xenu is part of the church's theology, it's no stranger than what's in Genesis. It's just newer and so seems weirder.

Religions appear strange in inverse proportion to their age. Judaism and Catholicism seem normal—or at least not deviant. Mormonism, less than 200 years old, can seem a bit incredible. And Scientology, founded 50 years ago, sounds truly bizarre. To hear from a burning bush 3,000 years ago is not as strange as meeting the Angel Moroni two centuries ago, which is far less strange than having a hack sci-fi writer as your prophet.

That's not to say that all religions are "equal" or equally deserving of respect. I'm no more a Scientologist than I am a Swedenborgian or a member of the Nation of Islam, and I do have two criticisms of Scientology that one rarely hears from Xenu-obsessed detractors.

First, while the introductory Scientology costs are not outlandish (for example, a member may pay about $200 for a dozen sessions of "auditing," to start out), the fees increase as adherents gain new knowledge through advanced course work (going "up the bridge to total freedom," in Scientology-speak)—and it does make the religion resemble a pyramid or matrix scheme. More than one Scientologist explained to me that they don't have the financial resources of the Catholic Church that come from thousands of years of donations. They have to charge. Well, that's not the whole truth. The secrecy surrounding Scientology's higher levels of knowledge has no apparent analog in the Abrahamic faiths, and the steep financial outlay to get higher knowledge seems also unique. Catholicism doesn't charge people to become learned, nor does Judaism. In fact, the greatest scholars in those faiths are often revered paupers: penniless rabbis and voluntarily poor priests, monks, and nuns.

Poverty is not Scientology's style, to say the least. That leads me to my second criticism: bad aesthetics! I have never been less religiously moved by ostensibly religious spaces than in Scientology buildings. Whether the Celebrity Centre in Los Angeles, the New York church off Times Square, or the local branch down the street from my house, Scientology buildings are filled with garish colors, flat-screen TVs showing silly, dull videos, and glossy pamphlets recycling the legend of the overrated L. Ron Hubbard, whom Scientologists revere as a scientist, writer, and seer of the first rank. In my opinion, Hubbard's books are bad, the movies they inspire are bad, and the derivative futuro-techno look that Scientology loves is an affront to good taste on every level. It's a religion that screams nouveau–Star Trek–riche. For those of us who seek mystery, wonder, and beauty in our religions, Scientology is a nonstarter.

But good taste, as art critic Dave Hickey says, is just the residue of someone else's privilege. Catholicism has its Gothic cathedrals, Judaism its timeless Torah scrolls. Scientology is brand-new, but it has played an impressive game of catch-up. In its drive to be a major world religion, it will inevitably go through a period when its absurdities and missteps are glaringly apparent. But someday it will be old and prosaic, and there may still be Scientologists. And when some of those Scientologists embezzle, lie, and steal—as they surely will—they'll seem no worse than Christians, Jews, or Muslims who have done the same.

Mark Oppenheimer, a senior book critic for the Forward, is writing a book about American oratory. He is coordinator of the Yale Journalism Initiative and hosts a podcast for the New Haven Independent.[/q]

GREAT POST. They are all is implausible and rediculous as each other
 
I don't think they use the Western Alphabet like we do. Mostly circles and squiggly lines combined with little pictorial representations.

That's true and from the pictures I've seen, I'd say either Australians have a penchant for exaggerating the size of their cranks or there is a reason why you never see Australians win foot races.
 
would this be an appropriate juncture to make a witty "shrimp on the barbie" remark?

you lot should all just shut up now.


and we don't have shrimp here. well, we do, but they're too small to be caught commerically. we only eat prawns. and they're different to shrimp.



but everyone back to shutting up now, thanks.
:grumpy:
 
My mother was 71 when she had her brain injury last year, but a completely healthy and vibrant 71-year-old who still taught college and adult-ed classes, walked up to several miles a day, was an accomplished sculptress and had a full and happy existence living on her own. Then this stupid freak accident happens, and all at once (and permanently) she's mentally and emotionally like a toddler. I'm her guardian now, and have more or less reconciled myself to the fact that the person I knew for 37 years is effectively dead and there's no point in looking for her anymore, but sometimes when she doesn't seem to recognize me and care that I'm there, or yells inarticulately and thrashes her fists at me for some perceived minor offense I can't even figure out, the whole situation feels so cruel and surreal; she never feared physical suffering, but I know she'd never have wanted to live like this. If she doesn't live to be very old it will be a blessing, but she remains physically very healthy, so she might well. Ironically, Depakote is one of the drugs I had it out with the psychiatrist assigned to her case over (still not exactly sure why she was on it, but lots of elderly people are; I think basically 'to reduce agitation'); they've taken her off it now, and she is more alert and, ironically, less grumpy as well.

That's a sad story about the Travolta boy; his condition sounds vaguely like that of a young man one of my brothers was sort of a nanny to for awhile--he also had chronic (though I think mostly minor) seizures, and apparently as a result of years of them, was really no longer mentally competent and needed a 'minder' with him everywhere he went. I don't really understand what if anything the connection of Kawasaki syndrome to it is supposed to be, that has nothing to do with seizures so far as I know, but it sounds like a heartbreakingly sad story.


I'm sorry to hear this Yolland. It must be heartbreaking for you, but perhaps in the future some reserach or developments might happen, that could be of benefit for your mother? Never lose hope!

I feel very sad for the Travoltas. I think loosing a child is the worst thing a parent would have to go through, and even if they had armed themselves against it maybe happening, the actuality of it would be excruciating. I don't give a shit about Scientology, its exactly the same as any other religion to me, and i don't think it played a part in this tragedy.
 
I agree with the basic premise of this thread and the ideas expressed in the article in the OP.

To me the questions re: Scientology would be less about it's weirdness and more about it's long term viability as a religion--is it likely going to be around in one or two millenia or will it have long since faded away. An interesting question is what kinds of religions go the distance--what is it that gives them their staying power often in the face of persecution? You've got religions like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, that essentialy started out with one person and then grew into these worldwide faiths. You can attribute some of that spread to the militaristic zeal of some it's adherents, but in the case of Christianity, the faith had to survive some 300 years plus before it's zealots would have even had a chance to start dominating anyone.

There are legitimate questions about Scientology's authenticity as a relgion but those shouldn't be based on it's "weirdness" quotient. After all, I'm pretty sure Christianity sounded very weird to the average Roman back when the faith was in it's infancy.
 
Scientologists aren't any weirder than you are...

Hmm...they must be pretty damned weird then! :D
 
Hey, I've long thought all religious types are whacked! :wink:

I always think religion is something people need when they have very little in their lifes and too much time on their hands. Aethesist here and proud of it. Lets hope the aliens land soon and blow all religions out of the water!:applaud:
 
I always think religion is something people need when they have very little in their lifes and too much time on their hands.

Maybe you ought to think a little more then. :|

You're welcome to critique religion and religious people all you want, but you ought to come up with something better than that.
 
In previous threads, when myself and others have spoken out against Scientology, identifying it as being much more dangerous and insidious than just a benign but sorta crazy religious choice, others have argued that all religions have features that Scientology do, and implied that Scientology-naysayers are bigots who are picking on the religion and their followers.

I think the difference between Scientology and other religions is that most other religions have good intentions, and while there are some damaging aspects, these mostly come from fringe groups or individuals, not from the mainstream leadership or teachings of these religions. With Scientology, the craziness and dangerous aspects are institutional, and come from the leadership of the church, and this becomes more and more apparent the further up the hierarchy you rise, according to reports from former members.
 
I think the difference between Scientology and other religions is that most other religions have good intentions, and while there are some damaging aspects, these mostly come from fringe groups or individuals, not from the mainstream leadership or teachings of these religions.
I really don't think that can be taken as a given.

The idea that real religion is peaceful and tolerant and any of the many exceptions aren't real religion is unjustifiable; religion is then by definition good, I don't think that is a fair assessment.

The bigoted fundamentalist is just as equally justified as the most progressive believer, in some cases more so because they are willing to accept the nastier precepts of the faith.
 
I really don't think that can be taken as a given.

The idea that real religion is peaceful and tolerant and any of the many exceptions aren't real religion is unjustifiable; religion is then by definition good, I don't think that is a fair assessment.

The bigoted fundamentalist is just as equally justified as the most progressive believer, in some cases more so because they are willing to accept the nastier precepts of the faith.

I'm talking in *very* general terms about mainstream religion.

A bigoted fundamentalist might be as justified and entitled to his beliefs, but not if it goes as far as acting on them and causing actual harm to others. And just because he accepts "nastier" beliefs does not necessarily make him a more devout or dedicated (honest, perhaps? I'm not articulating this well) follower, thereby worthy of more respect.
 
Just because she accepts "progressive" beliefs does not necessarily make her a more devout or dedicated (honest, perhaps?....

It can play both ways, and religions ride on a public attitude that they are inherently good.

Look at the respect bestowed on any religious leader, they are given entitlement to make ethical pronouncements on issues which they may not understand (reproductive technology for instance) and people listen.

It is a status quo which I feel is worth questioning, because it has real world implications.
 
Just because she accepts "progressive" beliefs does not necessarily make her a more devout or dedicated (honest, perhaps?....

It can play both ways, and religions ride on a public attitude that they are inherently good.

Look at the respect bestowed on any religious leader, they are given entitlement to make ethical pronouncements on issues which they may not understand (reproductive technology for instance) and people listen.

It is a status quo which I feel is worth questioning, because it has real world implications.

Yes, I completely agree with all of this. I'm agnostic. I think some shouting me down in old Scientology threads by coming back with "but Christianity isn't all that, either!" perhaps didn't realize that.

By calling out Scientology for what it is doesn't mean that I'm defending other religions, necessarily. I think Scientology deserves to be examined and debated on its own merits, or lack thereof, rather. I just find that, because it's shrouded in mystery, by design of the leadership, and with the celebrity PR job they've been doing, that people don't realize the dangers (real physical, emotional, social, and monetary dangers) that lurk behind the church. Many just think it's another off-the-wall but innocuous, feel-good sort of thing.
 
By calling out Scientology for what it is doesn't mean that I'm defending other religions, necessarily. I think Scientology deserves to be examined and debated on its own merits, or lack thereof, rather.


i do hear you.

i just feel that Scientologists -- and Mormons, for that matter -- are often singled out by evangelicals for ridicule and mockery and as "proof" that their religion is true, when there's very little difference between, say, the glib fervor of Tom Cruise (who Chelsea Lately is making fun of right now as i type this) and the fervor of, say, the Purpose-Driven Life crowd.

to those of us who are agnostic, it all looks cultish.
 
i do hear you.

i just feel that Scientologists -- and Mormons, for that matter -- are often singled out by evangelicals for ridicule and mockery and as "proof" that their religion is true, when there's very little difference between, say, the glib fervor of Tom Cruise (who Chelsea Lately is making fun of right now as i type this) and the fervor of, say, the Purpose-Driven Life crowd.

to those of us who are agnostic, it all looks cultish.

If it were only a matter of degree of fervor, I'd have no problem with it at all. Or at least no more problem with it than I have with any mainstream religion, which I have to admit is very little. For the most part, as long as they don't interfere with my life in any way, I'm very capable of tuning them out. I am bothered by the human rights practices of some, though, as I think most of us in FYM are. Thankfully, as you note in your sig, the world is spinning forward, in that regard.

I guess it's the deceptive practices of Scientology I have a problem with, the portrayal of themselves as something they're not.
 
In previous threads, when myself and others have spoken out against Scientology, identifying it as being much more dangerous and insidious than just a benign but sorta crazy religious choice, others have argued that all religions have features that Scientology do, and implied that Scientology-naysayers are bigots who are picking on the religion and their followers.

I think the difference between Scientology and other religions is that most other religions have good intentions, and while there are some damaging aspects, these mostly come from fringe groups or individuals, not from the mainstream leadership or teachings of these religions. With Scientology, the craziness and dangerous aspects are institutional, and come from the leadership of the church, and this becomes more and more apparent the further up the hierarchy you rise, according to reports from former members.

Good point. I think this is the real arena of debate regarding Scientology--not it's "weirdness quotient" which is neither here nor there, but issues such as the ones you raise.

I don't think the secretiveness in Scientology or it's requirement that the members pay to grow in the faith have any parallels in mainstream religion. (And no, tithing is not a good parallel. Some church leaders might try to "guilt" you into paying tithe, but that's not the same as having it built into the faith as precondition of gaining knowledge and experience in the faith).

I've heard that some disgruntled ex-members of my church have suggested that they weren't told the "whole truth" about one of the founders of our church who many believe was a prophet, but I think those individual experiences don't reflect an organized church effort and policy to hide certain elements of our beliefs from the "uninitiated."
 
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