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Old 08-08-2013, 08:51 PM   #121
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It does seem that quantum mechanics rejects the classical materialist construct of reality. And because of this - it also must reject the classical materialist understanding of the brain. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that our consciousness and brain are separate from each other, yet somehow connected by quantum entanglement.
There's a massive jump in logic from the beginning of this to the end.

And in order to have quantum entanglement, you need particles to entangle. But you're claiming consciousness to be in some spiritual, non material realm. I hate to bring him up again (for real... I'm sorry), but this is the sort of stuff I've heard Deepak Chopra talk about. (sorry)
 
sorry


The models proposed in the article you linked seem to be hypothetical. I'm not sure there is any consensus on the information they put forth.

There are quantum processes occurring in particles all over your body. That fact does not undo any knowledge we have on all our other biological processes. The only difference is you feel our consciousness is special and deserves special treatment
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:05 PM   #122
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There's a massive jump in logic from the beginning of this to the end.

And in order to have quantum entanglement, you need particles to entangle. But you're claiming consciousness to be in some spiritual, non material realm.[/spoiler]
True - but I do think that process of entanglement, at the end of the day, is what we would call today, spiritual. Meaning - it can't be explained materially why two particles can remain entangled while on complete opposite ends of the universe.

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I hate to bring him up again (for real... I'm sorry), but this is the sort of stuff I've heard Deepak Chopra talk about. (sorry)
 
sorry
Well, of course we are going to have something in common. We are both men of faith (to some degree) and are very excited about how quantum mechanics further demonstrates how little we actually know about this universe. I'm not ashamed that I see God's fingerprints all over the place - but that is not the same as saying "Ah! Got him! Come here guys, I finally found him hiding under a muon!"

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The models proposed in the article you linked seem to be hypothetical. I'm not sure there is any consensus on the information they put forth.
True, the article does admit this. But it does propose that their observations should provoke further studies on the relationship between the mind and quantum mechanics - because it did seem obvious to them that synaptic quantum tunneling was indeed occurring. Therefore I summoned my inner-Deepak to fill in the gaps.

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There are quantum processes occurring in particles all over your body. That fact does not undo any knowledge we have on all our other biological processes.
True

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The only difference is you feel our consciousness is special and deserves special treatment
And true.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:14 PM   #123
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True - but I do think that process of entanglement, at the end of the day, is what we would call today, spiritual. Meaning - it can't be explained materially why two particles can remain entangled while on complete opposite ends of the universe.
eeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-ok. I will accept your loose interpretation of spiritual. But I'm sure it will be solved and brought back into the realm of the living at one point (the information possibly causing both our heads to explode)

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Well, of course we are going to have something in common. We are both men of faith (to some degree) and are very excited about how quantum mechanics further demonstrates how little we actually know about this universe. I'm not ashamed that I see the God's fingerprints all over the place - but that is not the same as saying "Ah! Got him! Come here guys, I finally found him hiding under a muon!"
I'm still sorry

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True, the article does admit this. But it does propose that their observations should provoke further studies on the relationship between the mind and quantum mechanics - because it did seem obvious to them that synaptic quantum tunneling was indeed occurring. Therefore I summoned my inner-Deepak to fill in the gaps.
hahaha fair enough

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True

And true.

and for the record, I think consciousness is special (I mean, it's pretty awesome)... I just don't think it's supernaturally special
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:48 PM   #124
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A rebuttal of the rebuttal (I'm sure there will be more to come)

Pinker pushback II: Ross Douthat accuses Steve of scientism Why Evolution Is True
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:53 PM   #125
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eeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-ok. I will accept your loose interpretation of spiritual. But I'm sure it will be solved and brought back into the realm of the living at one point (the information possibly causing both our heads to explode)
Well - not sure that quantum entanglement will ever be "solved" by science - but yes, I agree that as we learn more about it we truly be amazed (even more than we are today).

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I'm still sorry
It is forgiven...but not forgotten...lol

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and for the record, I think consciousness is special (I mean, it's pretty awesome)... I just don't think it's supernaturally special
I don't think I can change your mind on that. Yet, I can't help but to sense - in some strange way - God will become apparent to you during this lifetime. But that won't happen by other people convincing of you, it will happen during one of these thought experiments - and then it will hit you...
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:07 PM   #126
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Just a random thought:

I shouldn't get frustrated at anyone bringing god into the gaps of any of these discussions. It's the basis of the thread after all. I just like to make arguments from what I feel are quantifiable angles, which can then be argued against. When I see god hypothesized, it can feel like a bit of a dead end for me. But I should be able to look past that. No hard feelings to you Aeon (not that I thought there were or that I was anything more than very mildly frustrated. I just don't want anyone to hesitate throwing their thoughts out there) or to anyone else that slips one in
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:09 PM   #127
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I don't think I can change your mind on that. Yet, I can't help but to sense - in some strange way - God will become apparent to you during this lifetime. But that won't happen by other people convincing of you, it will happen during one of these thought experiments - and then it will hit you...
Well, considering how you feel about god, I'll take this as a compliment.... but I wouldn't count on it

You know how you say that the more you learn about the universe, the more you see god in it? I feel the exact opposite
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:18 PM   #128
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True - but I do think that process of entanglement, at the end of the day, is what we would call today, spiritual. Meaning - it can't be explained materially why two particles can remain entangled while on complete opposite ends of the universe.
To me, it's less than it can't be explained materially and more that there is not a necessity that it has a practical meaning in the MACRO.

So that you can't explain it materially only makes sense at this point.
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:26 PM   #129
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Well, considering how you feel about god, I'll take this as a compliment.... but I wouldn't count on it
Just a hunch...nothing more.

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You know how you say that the more you learn about the universe, the more you see god in it? I feel the exact opposite
I definitely think that is how you feel today. And maybe you will always feel that way. But there's always a chance - that you'll have a moment of revelation.

For me - it came through reading Plato in college. I didn't come to the Cross crawling on my knees seeking rescue for life lived poorly. It just sort of hit me one night - and developed from there (and it is still developing).

But you and I stand on much more common ground than uncommon. I'm with you in almost every aspect of the observable/measurable universe. Science is a beautiful field and it's self correcting nature has brought us where we are today in terms of knowledge and technology. I will never argue against the validity of the scientific method. I just say this - and so much more.

It's no accident I have Obi Wan as my avatar...and not Richard Dawkins.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:43 AM   #130
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Also somewhat related, and with visuals. Also mind bending.

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Old 08-09-2013, 12:43 AM   #131
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Also somewhat related, and with visuals. Also mind bending.

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Old 08-09-2013, 12:46 AM   #132
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And if someone knows how to clean up the link, I'd appreciate it. Thx.
You mean the title at the top of the window like this?

How to Imagine the Tenth Dimension
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:53 AM   #133
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You mean the title at the top of the window like this?

How to Imagine the Tenth Dimension
Yes. Thank you.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:59 AM   #134
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Yes. Thank you.
No problem. If you use the link button in the post window instead of just copying the url into the body of the message, you'll have a chance to change the link title to whatever you want
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:58 PM   #135
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That was a cool video, Irvine. Thanks for sharing.

Here's another one you might like.

The Fabric of the Cosmos - Quantum Leap

The part that starts around the 5 minute mark covers many of the things we talked about in this thread.

Brian Greene takes a little heat from the hardcore QM fans, but his TV shows have great illustrations of some far out concepts.
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