Science and Religion

[Jive Turkey]

It does seem that quantum mechanics rejects the classical materialist construct of reality. And because of this - it also must reject the classical materialist understanding of the brain. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that our consciousness and brain are separate from each other, yet somehow connected by quantum entanglement.

There's a massive jump in logic from the beginning of this to the end.

And in order to have quantum entanglement, you need particles to entangle. But you're claiming consciousness to be in some spiritual, non material realm. I hate to bring him up again (for real... I'm sorry), but this is the sort of stuff I've heard Deepak Chopra talk about. (sorry)

Spoiler

sorry

The models proposed in the article you linked seem to be hypothetical. I'm not sure there is any consensus on the information they put forth.

There are quantum processes occurring in particles all over your body. That fact does not undo any knowledge we have on all our other biological processes. The only difference is you feel our consciousness is special and deserves special treatment

 

[AEON]

There's a massive jump in logic from the beginning of this to the end.

And in order to have quantum entanglement, you need particles to entangle. But you're claiming consciousness to be in some spiritual, non material realm.[/spoiler]

True - but I do think that process of entanglement, at the end of the day, is what we would call today, spiritual. Meaning - it can't be explained materially why two particles can remain entangled while on complete opposite ends of the universe.

I hate to bring him up again (for real... I'm sorry), but this is the sort of stuff I've heard Deepak Chopra talk about. (sorry)

Spoiler

sorry

Well, of course we are going to have something in common. We are both men of faith (to some degree) and are very excited about how quantum mechanics further demonstrates how little we actually know about this universe. I'm not ashamed that I see God's fingerprints all over the place - but that is not the same as saying "Ah! Got him! Come here guys, I finally found him hiding under a muon!"

The models proposed in the article you linked seem to be hypothetical. I'm not sure there is any consensus on the information they put forth.

True, the article does admit this. But it does propose that their observations should provoke further studies on the relationship between the mind and quantum mechanics - because it did seem obvious to them that synaptic quantum tunneling was indeed occurring. Therefore I summoned my inner-Deepak to fill in the gaps.

There are quantum processes occurring in particles all over your body. That fact does not undo any knowledge we have on all our other biological processes.

True

The only difference is you feel our consciousness is special and deserves special treatment

And true.

 

[Jive Turkey]

True - but I do think that process of entanglement, at the end of the day, is what we would call today, spiritual. Meaning - it can't be explained materially why two particles can remain entangled while on complete opposite ends of the universe.

eeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-ok. I will accept your loose interpretation of spiritual. But I'm sure it will be solved and brought back into the realm of the living at one point (the information possibly causing both our heads to explode)

Well, of course we are going to have something in common. We are both men of faith (to some degree) and are very excited about how quantum mechanics further demonstrates how little we actually know about this universe. I'm not ashamed that I see the God's fingerprints all over the place - but that is not the same as saying "Ah! Got him! Come here guys, I finally found him hiding under a muon!"

I'm still sorry

True, the article does admit this. But it does propose that their observations should provoke further studies on the relationship between the mind and quantum mechanics - because it did seem obvious to them that synaptic quantum tunneling was indeed occurring. Therefore I summoned my inner-Deepak to fill in the gaps.

hahaha fair enough

True

And true.

and for the record, I think consciousness is special (I mean, it's pretty awesome)... I just don't think it's supernaturally special

 

[Jive Turkey]

A rebuttal of the rebuttal (I'm sure there will be more to come)

Pinker pushback II: Ross Douthat accuses Steve of scientism ? Why Evolution Is True

 

[AEON]

eeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-ok. I will accept your loose interpretation of spiritual. But I'm sure it will be solved and brought back into the realm of the living at one point (the information possibly causing both our heads to explode)

Well - not sure that quantum entanglement will ever be "solved" by science - but yes, I agree that as we learn more about it we truly be amazed (even more than we are today).

I'm still sorry

It is forgiven...but not forgotten...lol

and for the record, I think consciousness is special (I mean, it's pretty awesome)... I just don't think it's supernaturally special

I don't think I can change your mind on that. Yet, I can't help but to sense - in some strange way - God will become apparent to you during this lifetime. But that won't happen by other people convincing of you, it will happen during one of these thought experiments - and then it will hit you...

 

[Jive Turkey]

Just a random thought:

I shouldn't get frustrated at anyone bringing god into the gaps of any of these discussions. It's the basis of the thread after all. I just like to make arguments from what I feel are quantifiable angles, which can then be argued against. When I see god hypothesized, it can feel like a bit of a dead end for me. But I should be able to look past that. No hard feelings to you Aeon (not that I thought there were or that I was anything more than very mildly frustrated. I just don't want anyone to hesitate throwing their thoughts out there) or to anyone else that slips one in

 

[Jive Turkey]

I don't think I can change your mind on that. Yet, I can't help but to sense - in some strange way - God will become apparent to you during this lifetime. But that won't happen by other people convincing of you, it will happen during one of these thought experiments - and then it will hit you...

Well, considering how you feel about god, I'll take this as a compliment.... but I wouldn't count on it

You know how you say that the more you learn about the universe, the more you see god in it? I feel the exact opposite

 

[U2DMfan]

True - but I do think that process of entanglement, at the end of the day, is what we would call today, spiritual. Meaning - it can't be explained materially why two particles can remain entangled while on complete opposite ends of the universe.

To me, it's less than it can't be explained materially and more that there is not a necessity that it has a practical meaning in the MACRO.

So that you can't explain it materially only makes sense at this point.

 

[AEON]

Well, considering how you feel about god, I'll take this as a compliment.... but I wouldn't count on it

Just a hunch...nothing more.

You know how you say that the more you learn about the universe, the more you see god in it? I feel the exact opposite

I definitely think that is how you feel today. And maybe you will always feel that way. But there's always a chance - that you'll have a moment of revelation.

For me - it came through reading Plato in college. I didn't come to the Cross crawling on my knees seeking rescue for life lived poorly. It just sort of hit me one night - and developed from there (and it is still developing).

But you and I stand on much more common ground than uncommon. I'm with you in almost every aspect of the observable/measurable universe. Science is a beautiful field and it's self correcting nature has brought us where we are today in terms of knowledge and technology. I will never argue against the validity of the scientific method. I just say this - and so much more.

It's no accident I have Obi Wan as my avatar...and not Richard Dawkins.

 

[Irvine511]

Also somewhat related, and with visuals. Also mind bending.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0ca4miMMaCE&desktop_uri=/watch?v=0ca4miMMaCE

Makes me think that the Rastafarians had it right -- I is I and everything is everything.

 

[Irvine511]

Also somewhat related, and with visuals. Also mind bending.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0ca4miMMaCE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D0ca4miMMaCE

Makes me think that the Rastafarians had it right -- I is I and everything is everything.

And if someone knows how to clean up the link, I'd appreciate it. Thx.

 

[Jive Turkey]

And if someone knows how to clean up the link, I'd appreciate it. Thx.

You mean the title at the top of the window like this?

How to Imagine the Tenth Dimension

 

[Irvine511]

You mean the title at the top of the window like this?

How to Imagine the Tenth Dimension

Yes. Thank you.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Yes. Thank you.

No problem. If you use the link button in the post window instead of just copying the url into the body of the message, you'll have a chance to change the link title to whatever you want

 

[AEON]

That was a cool video, Irvine. Thanks for sharing.

Here's another one you might like.

The Fabric of the Cosmos - Quantum Leap

The part that starts around the 5 minute mark covers many of the things we talked about in this thread.

Brian Greene takes a little heat from the hardcore QM fans, but his TV shows have great illustrations of some far out concepts.

 

[AEON]

Scientists Achieve On-Demand Quantum Teleportation For The First Time

Quantum teleportation has taken another step forward, thanks to two complimentary experiments, one from ETH Zurich and one from the University of Tokyo. The researchers have demonstrated the most reliable yet version of quantum teleportation--what Nature is calling "quantum teleportation on demand."

In the new experiments, conducted at the 100-micrometer scale and at temperatures of around 20 millikelvins, "Alice" and "Bob" from the example above are separated by about 5 mm. The University of Tokyo experiment managed to induce entanglement deterministically, which had only been done before at distances about 1,000 times smaller. And those previous experiments had only managed to do so reliably about 1 percent of the time, compared to this experiment, which teleported a qubit about 40 percent of the time (and reproduced it on the other end with about an 88 percent accuracy). So this is a huge leap forward!

 

[AEON]

In tonight's show How the Universe Works Hawking said, "Then when we will know the mind of God."

I know he's an atheist, but the fact he can't come up with a a more accurate analogy is actually quite interesting.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I'm not sure why you're so fascinated when physicists do that. There's no underlying reason that he uses a god as a metaphor for mathematical laws. When I say "I swear to god, if you tell me you like Big Bang Theory or Two and a Half Men, we can't be friends anymore", it doesn't mean I have an underlying, subconscious belief in god. He's just saying it in a way that sounds grand. "Then we will know why the mathematical laws are the way they are" doesn't have the same ring to it

 

[AEON]

He's just saying it in a way that sounds grand. "Then we will know why the mathematical laws are the way they are" doesn't have the same ring to it

Doesn't that - in a way - make my point?

 

[Jive Turkey]

Doesn't that - in a way - make my point?

I don't know. What is your point?

 

[AEON]

I don't know. What is your point?

That there is even a need to make a metaphor for God. That notion doesn't come from nothing.

 

[Jive Turkey]

That there is even a need to make a metaphor for God. That notion doesn't come from nothing.

The notion comes from the fact that for the past..5/6000 years? (for sure more, but I'm talking what we have evidence for)... humanity, for the most part, believed that a god existed. We're not going to suddenly forget about that. You realize that quote was the last sentence in A Brief History of Time, right? By ending book that way, he harkens back to the millennia of human existence in which the laws that that govern the universe were a complete mystery to us. It's meant to be awe inspiring at the progress of human civilization. If he just ended the book with "for then we would know why the Universe works as it does" - apart from being a fucking boring sentence - it's completely void of any hint at our past. It's metaphor. He doesn't need to make a metaphor for god; he does it because then what he's implying becomes all more powerful; after all this time, we've almost figured it out. Nothing about it suggests that anyone uses a metaphor for god because it's a bit of proof of his existence or because we can't think of anything better. In fact, it almost belittles the idea of a god. "Oh, you're all powerful? We've pretty much figured out how your mind works". What would that make us?

 

[AEON]

The notion comes from the fact that for the past..5/6000 years? (for sure more, but I'm talking what we have evidence for)... humanity, for the most part, believed that a god existed. We're not going to suddenly forget about that. You realize that quote was the last sentence in A Brief History of Time, right? By ending book that way, he harkens back to the millennia of human existence in which the laws that that govern the universe were a complete mystery to us. It's meant to be awe inspiring at the progress of human civilization. If he just ended the book with "for then we would know why the Universe works as it does" - apart from being a fucking boring sentence - it's completely void of any hint at our past. It's metaphor. He doesn't need to make a metaphor for god; he does it because then what he's implying becomes all more powerful; after all this time, we've almost figured it out. Nothing about it suggests that anyone uses a metaphor for god because it's a bit of proof of his existence or because we can't think of anything better. In fact, it almost belittles the idea of a god. "Oh, you're all powerful? We've pretty much figured out how your mind works". What would that make us?

To be honest - I'm in my early 40's now, the kids are in bed, the wife is falling asleep, I'm listening to The National, I was thinking about that show I watched earlier in the evening and I thought I would bait you - you've been quiet. And I got a bite!

 

[Jive Turkey]

hahaha jerk

Well, you got me to think about my response to that in a way I hadn't before, so win win I guess

 

[AEON]

The notion comes from the fact that for the past..5/6000 years? (for sure more, but I'm talking what we have evidence for)... humanity, for the most part, believed that a god existed. We're not going to suddenly forget about that. You realize that quote was the last sentence in A Brief History of Time, right? By ending book that way, he harkens back to the millennia of human existence in which the laws that that govern the universe were a complete mystery to us. It's meant to be awe inspiring at the progress of human civilization. If he just ended the book with "for then we would know why the Universe works as it does" - apart from being a fucking boring sentence - it's completely void of any hint at our past. It's metaphor. He doesn't need to make a metaphor for god; he does it because then what he's implying becomes all more powerful; after all this time, we've almost figured it out. Nothing about it suggests that anyone uses a metaphor for god because it's a bit of proof of his existence or because we can't think of anything better. In fact, it almost belittles the idea of a god. "Oh, you're all powerful? We've pretty much figured out how your mind works". What would that make us?

This is actually a VERY good response. I love it. I'll have to google it and see if you stole it

 

[AEON]

after all this time, we've almost figured it out.

Well - that doesn't seem too likely. But I think that's a good thing. It just means we have MUCH MORE to figure out and have fun with.

 

[Jive Turkey]

This is actually a VERY good response. I love it. I'll have to google it and see if you stole it

haha Thanks man.

Well - that doesn't seem too likely. But I think that's a good thing. It just means we have MUCH MORE to figure out and have fun with.

Ya, you're right on here. But even still, the progress is mind bending

 

[AEON]

Ya, you're right on here. But even still, the progress is mind bending

And just imagine what quantum computing will give us in the next 10-20 years. These computers will essentially be able to calculate just about every possible path of existence for every atom - at once. We will essentially have the "mind of God" in a search box.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Perhaps my understanding of what a quantum computer is might be wrong, but is it not essentially the same as a modern computer, only each bit is able to store more probable information than just the binary off or on? In that way, they have exponentially more memory than a classic computer per bit and can access a given amount much quicker? Also, theoretically, two identical entangled quantum computers could share information instantly at faster than light speed.

 

[cobl04]

Saw the Krauss vs William Craig debate tonight, the topic was 'is it reasonable to believe there is a God?'

JT warned me about Craig when I first bought it up, but honestly I thought he did pretty well - I'm an atheist so there were plenty of things he said that didn't click with me (in particular the 'historical facts' of Jesus' resurrection and his thoughts on the veracity of scripture) but I thought he debated pretty well.

Obviously I agree with Krauss and a lot of what he said (though there was plenty that went over my head). There was one quite interesting debate between the two about morality... once they took God out of the equation it seemed that they agreed on a lot of the subtleties and smaller things, though ultimately Craig believes it's a god-driven thing where as Krauss does not ("if Dr Craig suddenly stopped believing in God I don't think he'd go and kill his neighbour all of a sudden").

Dr Craig seemed reasonable to me, and personally I think it is 'reasonable' (in a more loose, less scientific sense of the word) to believe in God, many good people I know do. But I really couldn't connect at all with the two things I mentioned above - the "historical facts" about Jesus' resurrection in particular was just absolutely ridiculous, as were the stuff about scripture... when Krauss rightly said scripture is falsifiable because it is based on writings that may have been mistranslated after being passed on by word, and they were written after the fact... and Dr Craig's only argument in return was that the scholars at the time had a good record and wouldn't lie.