Science and Religion - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-01-2013, 01:40 AM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
This came on during How the Universe Works - my son and I about died laughing - I had to share...


Snuffy The Seal - Funniest commercial of 2013 - YouTube
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 01:59 AM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
Through the Wormhole's episode is titled Did God Create Evolution?
That was a good a episode. I especially liked the part about the pre-existent patterns of geometry from Dr. George Ellis (about 45 minutes in). As a person that found God through studying Plato - I was pleasantly surprised
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 11:58 AM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Another great video on the Holographic Principle. Dr. Susskind is on the panel.

A Thin Sheet of Reality: The Universe as a Hologram (Full) - YouTube

At about the 20 min. mark, the discussion seems a bit like Plato's Theory of Forms.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 09:11 PM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Since Planck is referred to several times in this video I thought you might find this quote interesting:

Quote:
“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” ― Max Planck, found of Quantum Mechanics
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 09:22 PM   #20
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 07:05 PM
“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” ― Max Planck, found of Quantum Mechanics

*ding* red flag.
And why must be assume that, Dr Planck?

It's important to point out that nothing in his studies lead him to this conclusion.
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 11:47 PM   #21
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post

*ding* red flag.
And why must be assume that, Dr Planck?
I'm not saying this proves God - I'm just pointing out philosophy and theology have a voice in understanding reality just as much as a quantum physicist stating there are multiverses or membrane bubbles or parallel universes (without any possible way to ever measure or prove that) to explain the unobservant substance beyond the veil of our agreed upon reality.

I'm glad you point out the word assume - because that is mostly all they have in the quantum world, assumptions. Of course, these assumption a really cool and fun to discuss and they are based on at least some observable facts (not unlike theology) - but it is the same as my sign post in the fog analogy - they are only pointing in a certain direction...perhaps.

Given that quantum mechanics is the foundation of our entire existence - I think it is fair to point out that scientists at this point really have no frack'in clue why quantum particles behave they way they do...which means all information is subject to that substance behind the veil - whatever it is - but everyone, including the brightest minds, knows exists.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 12:00 AM   #22
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 07:05 PM
But the question to why quantum particles behave the way they do could be a complete non-question. In what sort of universe would we find ourselves where quantum particles behave in no way at all?
If one were to completely forget the idea of a god, they wouldn't be independently lead that way by studying the natural world
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 12:01 AM   #23
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post

I'm glad you point out the word assume - because that is mostly all they have in the quantum world, assumptions.
But positing a god in place of knowledge doesn't answer any questions
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 01:16 AM   #24
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
But positing a god in place of knowledge doesn't answer any questions
I agree... for the most part. I'm not saying because I believe that God is somewhere behind that veil - that we shouldn't keep pushing that veil back and back with our own exploration and understanding. That's why I love Quantum Mechanics.

However, the occasional arrogant tone and self-contradicting statements of someone like Dr. Krauss really places himself a negative light. Even though he states himself that the God-creation may be true - by smug facial expressions and demeaning jokes he makes it seem you must be an idiot to not agree with him and his creation-by-quantum-fluctuation-even-something-like-energy-and-particles-must-be-in-existence-in-order-to-fluctuate theorem.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 01:42 AM   #25
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
But the question to why In what sort of universe would we find ourselves where quantum particles behave in no way at all?
There would be no us to find ourselves into much of anything at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
If one were to completely forget the idea of a god, they wouldn't be independently lead that way by studying the natural world
JT - I love you man, but I can't follow this post after several times rereading it. Can you please rephrase this question?
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 02:03 AM   #26
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I agree... for the most part. I'm not saying because I believe that God is somewhere behind that veil - that we shouldn't keep pushing that veil back and back with our own exploration and understanding. That's why I love Quantum Mechanics.
Despite coming from opposite ends, I can still get behind this

Quote:

However, the occasional arrogant tone and self-contradicting statements of someone like Dr. Krauss really places himself a negative light. Even though he states himself that the God-creation may be true - by smug facial expressions and demeaning jokes he makes it seem you must be an idiot to not agree with him and his creation-by-quantum-fluctuation-even-something-like-energy-and-particles-must-be-in-existence-in-order-to-fluctuate theorem.
I'm not sure he's being self contradictory though. He's saying it may be true in the same way it might be any other unfalsifiable hypothesis anyone might have.
For his quantum fluctuations, there literally aren't any particles or energy in existence to fluctuate out of. They pop into and out of existence from nothing at all. That's the amazing thing about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
There would be no us to find ourselves into much of anything at all.
Right. So it could very well be a meaningless question. There needn't be a reason why.

Quote:
JT - I love you man, but I can't follow this post after several times rereading it. Can you please rephrase this question?
hahaha, alright. I guess I can put it like this:
You (the general you...but I guess also you) come to these questions with the idea of a god already in mind. If you were a blank slate, gathering the knowledge we have of the universe around us wouldn't independently lead you to the conclusion "well, it's obvious there's someone who put all of this together". When the veil is pushed back so far that a god is completely irrelevant, the "blank slate" wouldn't just invent, then plop one in at the end.
Make sense?
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 02:30 AM   #27
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
They pop into and out of existence from nothing at all. That's the amazing thing about it.
Or...they pop in and out of our ability to observe...Also, are we to believe these particles pop in and out of existence in such a randomly perfect manner that is necessary to support this known (classical physics) universe with no guidance or predetermined pattern whatsoever? Are you suggesting the universe is an ongoing, moment-by-moment series of the same accident over and over again? Yet, the math (the new Holy Grail but we'll go with it) suggests that the odds are horribly against (meaning beyond reason to accept) such an idea - that this same randomness can keep occurring, moment-moment, over the course of billions of years in a uniform manner. Which is why men from Einstein to Susskind invoke something greater than our universe is beyond the veil.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
Right. So it could very well be a meaningless question. There needn't be a reason why.
Well - if we didn't question why there wouldn't even be a field like Quantum Mechanics or Philosophy or Theology. We are human - it is in our essence to question why Just like Dr. Susskind asked, "Why all this stuff?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
hahaha, alright. I guess I can put it like this:
You (the general you...but I guess also you) come to these questions with the idea of a god already in mind. If you were a blank slate, gathering the knowledge we have of the universe around us wouldn't independently lead you to the conclusion "well, it's obvious there's someone who put all of this together". When the veil is pushed back so far that a god is completely irrelevant, the "blank slate" wouldn't just invent, then plop one in at the end.
Make sense?
Well, perhaps you are right. But I was an Ayn Rand atheist before I read Plato - so, my filters aren't so strong that I can't change my mind in the face of a compelling/enlightening idea. An all-powerful, all-loving eternal God is a compelling/enlightening idea.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 11:05 AM   #28
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Found some quotes that might add to the discussion.

I will certainly concede that when top physicists do mention the possibility of God or Intelligent Design they are referring to a more Deist view than a Theist one.

Quote:
But physicists can never explain what 'breathes fire' into the equations, and actualises them in a real cosmos. The fundamental question of 'why is there something rather than nothing?' remains the province of philosophers." - Martin Rees
Quote:
"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." - Carl Sagan
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 01:13 PM   #29
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
You (the general you...but I guess also you) come to these questions with the idea of a god already in mind. If you were a blank slate, gathering the knowledge we have of the universe around us wouldn't independently lead you to the conclusion "well, it's obvious there's someone who put all of this together". When the veil is pushed back so far that a god is completely irrelevant, the "blank slate" wouldn't just invent, then plop one in at the end.
Make sense?
Isn't it human existentialism and social interaction, or maybe mortality that led God and religion to arise in the first place? And if so, didn't it arrive naturally?

Superstitions are also taught, yes, but those initial superstitious were not passed down by ancient astronauts. Humans will place Order over Chaos, naturally. Even to this day. See: conspiracy theories. I think if we forgot all about the concept God one day, there would be a new "God" within weeks.

I think it's a very natural thing. It's also basic deduction of causation, is it not? Science has a difficult time explaining this sort of...human nature. Some of us are able to rationalize through that science but many cannot. This is also why I believe anti-theism is pretty damn wrong (note - not atheism, but anti-theism). There is a lot not accounted for in terms of basic human need. And most anti-theists, formerly including myself through most of my 20's, opine from a place of luxury that not everyone else has.
__________________
U2DMfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 04:21 PM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Or...they pop in and out of our ability to observe
Perhaps. But they you can attribute any quality of the universe you want to just something we can't observe.

Quote:
...Also, are we to believe these particles pop in and out of existence in such a randomly perfect manner that is necessary to support this known (classical physics) universe with no guidance or predetermined pattern whatsoever?
There's nothing about it that suggests they pop in and out of existence at just the perfect manner to support the universe.
But yes, we are to believe there is no guidance or predetermined patterns because there is not a shred of evidence for either

Quote:
Are you suggesting the universe is an ongoing, moment-by-moment series of the same accident over and over again? Yet, the math (the new Holy Grail but we'll go with it) suggests that the odds are horribly against (meaning beyond reason to accept) such an idea - that this same randomness can keep occurring, moment-moment, over the course of billions of years in a uniform manner. Which is why men from Einstein to Susskind invoke something greater than our universe is beyond the veil.
What perfect pattern do you mean? Either way, you can't use probability in reverse like that. The probability of me seeing license plate number ADHR 274 today out of all the license plates in the world was infinitely small. So small in fact to be statistically impossible. But since we can't use probabilities in reverse that way, it's irrelevant.

(Einstein didn't believe in something greater. His god was metaphorical)



Quote:
Well - if we didn't question why there wouldn't even be a field like Quantum Mechanics or Philosophy or Theology. We are human - it is in our essence to question why Just like Dr. Susskind asked, "Why all this stuff?"
Oh, no, no. I wasn't suggesting we shouldn't ask questions. Rather, I was suggesting we should sometimes recognize that some questions are meaningless (ie what is the meaning of life?). I will concede asking questions about the behavior of quantum particles is well worth exploring, but it's completely within reason that at some base layer in the onion, things just are.

Quote:
Well, perhaps you are right. But I was an Ayn Rand atheist before I read Plato - so, my filters aren't so strong that I can't change my mind in the face of a compelling/enlightening idea. An all-powerful, all-loving eternal God is a compelling/enlightening idea.
I'm sure different people have different scales with which they apply preconceptions. I have no doubt you'd be reasonable enough to change your mind when presented with something compelling (as evidenced by your willingness to push the veil (and thus, god?) further back in light of new understandings). But like you mentioned to be in another thread, I'm not here to convert you; I'm just here to share my views and listen to others

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Found some quotes that might add to the discussion.
Sagan's god was also more of a metaphor. When he speaks of spirituality, he isn't talking about supernatural spirituality. More of the contemplate-the-vastness-of-the-Universe awe (You can probably, on occasion, add smoke-a-joint-and to the beginning of that string). Harris, Dawkins, Krauss, etc also talk about this kind of spirituality. I experience it myself and believe it's even more fulfilling than anything supernatural because it doesn't require a leap of faith and the inkling of doubt that certainly must creep in
__________________

__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com