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Old 05-19-2010, 11:55 PM   #31
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this thread just got interesting. thanks to all who have posted.
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:17 AM   #32
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You are basically saying that if a woman wears revealing clothes, it is her fault that she gets raped or harassed. This is what I meant when Islamic leaders say that earlier. You are echoing what many in Islam, both male and female say.

No, its not the media who say Islam teaches if a woman get raped its her fault. I've read it on websites that teach about Islam (such as Beliefnet), I read a book by the sister in law to Osama bin Laden. Heck, years ago on FYM, we had a poster from Malaysia I think, who had the attitude that provocative dressing leads to rape.
I said it presents a higher risk. Is it justified? NO. NEVER.
Just as I think it's a higher risk of me getting mugged if I go walking alone at night in dimly lit places. Do you think by walking alone at night in dimly lit places, I am inviting myself to get mugged? Is just about everyone going to mug me now? Probably not. Does it give anyone the right to mug me? Is it justified that the person mug me because I am walking alone? Hell No. What made the person decide to jump and mug me? Only he knows that. Are people going to blame me for getting mugged under that circumstance? Yes, some of them will, regardless of religion. Is the burden only on me to choose a safer route or not walk at all? No. The person shouldn't have mugged me. Period. Will I think I should have chosen a different route in retrospect if this happened? Probably yes. Because I can only change my actions, not someone else's. And that's still not a guarantee that I'd be safe. Just, perhaps, a less risky one.

And I consider the Internet media as well.

I am actually from somewhere culturally close to Malaysia, and yes, when I lived there, we were always told not to dress in revealing clothes, both men and women. But it was because it was considered offensive in our culture. Not because it leads to rape. You can't force one society's norms into other societies. Who's to say that is the right one? I can't say mine is the right one for every country I've lived in. It's just part of our diversity.
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:40 AM   #33
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You can't force one society's norms into other societies.
Who's to say that is the right one?
I can't say mine is the right one for every country I've lived in.
It's just part of our diversity.
please don't write things like this
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:19 AM   #34
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(Arrrrgh, Edited out my comments on the rape/provocative clothing comment. I'm just ditto-ing what's already been said. Let it show for the record that I, too, bristled at that. )

What do you think about France's ban on Muslim women wearing burkas, or hajibs, or whatever the law entails? (I can't remember what clothing the ban actually covers.)

Is it actually about France trying to "protect" Muslim women, or is it an anti-Muslim tactic?
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:49 PM   #35
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It was Belgium, and it's a ridiculous law for ridiculous reasons. It's purely political.
I don't agree with the fashion of wearing burkas and hajibs, but outlawing them is a very dangerous turn we are making, and yields nothing.
Belgium is still on the verge of collapse, and all they can come up with is such a nonsense law.
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:53 PM   #36
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Looks like the French thing I mentioned is a proposed law:

Associated Press News

If they're so concerned about women being oppressed, maybe they should enforce laws about men who are forcing the women to wear the veils/burkas. But no, this just looks like another way to try and control women.

Way to go, French government!

Quebec is also considering a similar ban:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Internat...0651274275779/
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:08 PM   #37
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The attitude that provocative dressing leads to rape is certainly not confined to Muslims or to any country or religion.

It still exists often in the US and is held by people of many different religious beliefs or of no religious beliefs at all. Sometimes women in the US are just metaphorically stoned and policed.
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:12 PM   #38
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It goes without saying that there are things that many women feel they need to do to protect themselves, but I think in many ways, we need to change the way we talk about rape.

It's always about how "women SHOULD do this" and "women SHOULDN'T do that," rather than focusing on what men should do. The list of "shoulds/shouldn'ts" for women is endless, and the list for men consists of one item: DON'T RAPE.

That's where my cringey reaction came from. Please continue to give your thoughts from the Muslim perspective, because they are appreciated.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:14 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
On the one hand, I have to say that violence isn't the answer.
Sometimes it is necessary when you get fed up by an oppressive aggressor!

Quote:
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Looks like the French thing I mentioned is a proposed law:

Associated Press News

If they're so concerned about women being oppressed, maybe they should enforce laws about men who are forcing the women to wear the veils/burkas. But no, this just looks like another way to try and control women.

Way to go, French government!
A man who forces a woman to wear a burka or niqab gets a fine of 15000 euros or can be thrown in jail for one year.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:24 PM   #40
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Yeah, my "other hand" definitely outweighed the "one hand."

My knee-jerk reaction is "violence is bad," but .... yeah.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:36 PM   #41
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A man who forces a woman to wear a burka or niqab gets a fine of 15000 euros or can be thrown in jail for one year.
But how could that be proven?
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:40 PM   #42
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The law requires that three men testify against him.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:59 PM   #43
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A man who forces a woman to wear a burka or niqab gets a fine of 15000 euros or can be thrown in jail for one year.
Thanks for finding that - clearly, my reading skillz have failed me yet again.
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