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Old 05-19-2010, 08:05 PM   #16
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The article made it sound like she was beating up the policeman only when she was asked to confirm their relationship. That's probably not the whole story. But if that's true, I can't say I agree with the way she handled the matter.
Sometimes, you can only take so much, then you have to do something.

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The Islamic laws I know are very protective of female,
I only need "protection" if I'm inferior to the "protector."
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:14 PM   #17
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are you inferior to the police?
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:33 PM   #18
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And people who said that they’ve read the Koran, when they meant reading a translation of it, cannot claim that they’ve read it. But that’s another argument that would take me pages to explain and I’d rather not go into.
The translation argument is interesting, given how many Muslims understand classical arabic.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:02 PM   #19
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are you inferior to the police?
No.

But to make your point, you'll have to actually have one, deep.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:09 PM   #20
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Sorry, this is gonna be one long post.... I hope I don't come across as preaching or forcing my belief on you. I just believe in sharing information because the unknown is what people fear the most.

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Which ones? Because I get the impression that the Islamic laws meant to protect women from such things as rape or sexual harassment put the blame on women when they do experience those things.
Really? Where do you hear that? Is that for every case that you know, or is it just the ones that the media care enough to broadcast? The media also reports about the abundance of sexual abuse by Catholic priests, but I would be naive to think that the Bible or the Vatican condones such behavior, or that all priests are pedophiles.

Many of the rules from the Koran are for things such as prayers obligations and fasting where men have very limited excuse to abandon them whereas for women, the rules are more forgiving due to natural circumstances like pregnancy, breastfeeding, menstruation. It is forbidden for a husband to treat his wife badly, or to stop providing for her, or to take back anything that he has given her from the beginning of the marriage (dower?). If this happens, the woman can choose to leave the marriage (I'm simplifying things a bit here).

The rule and need for modesty is also something that is mentioned in the Koran, and it applies to both men and women. This is an area where the interpretation is open, and often controversial. Men and women are required to dress modestly. Dressing provocatively can invoke sexual desires and therefore may put the women/men at risk in dangerous situations. But really, how often do we hear about skimpy-clothed men getting jumped by random women? Across different cultures, the interpretation of dressing modestly varies, just like in every company, the definition of 'Business Casual' varies. To me, a tank top and short shorts are provocative in public. That may not be to you. In some culture, women have to cover everything, including their heads and faces. Is that what's explicitly stated in the Koran? No. I've been fortunate to grow up in a community where head coverings are not obligatory, but it is a choice for women. Some married members of my family wear them, some don't. I don't.

Do I think if the woman dressed provocatively in public she deserved to be raped? No one deserves to be raped, but I do think that she knew and chose to take the higher risk of going out with skimpy clothes. It's just common sense. Do I judge women who dress provocatively according to my standards? I'm learning not to because I'm learning every culture has a different standard. And in Islam, if proven that the man raped the woman, he most certainly would not be able to get away with it, regardless of what he/she said and what she wore. And I'm not saying all women who were raped or sexually harassed must have dressed provocatively. Sometimes you're just dealing with rapists and perverts. Is there ever an excuse for them? The Koran states you should receive punishment for even spreading slander about women (whether it's a man or woman who did it), let alone acts of physical violence.

Whoever accuses a woman of adultery, they have to produce at least four witnesses to support the allegation and can testify that they have witnessed the adultery has been committed. I'm not just talking about if someone sees them in public together. The burden is on the accuser to prove that the adultery has been committed. If they fail to do so, they are the ones who get the punishment instead, for they just committed slander. And if they are able to prove adultery, it's not just the adulteress who's punished, the adulterer gets the same thing.

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I saw a program on National Geographic some time ago that the Koran is not as preserved as some believe. Some scholars came across a Koran from around the year 600 that had different passages than the Koran of today. Meaning, just as the Bible has changed over the years, so has the Koran. A book was written about that, but the authors had to use pseudonyms and had to go into hiding because radicals were threatening to kill them.
There are always going to be people who challenge the preservation of the Koran. I have to watch the program you mentioned and find out what version they're talking about. How do they know whether that's the true version versus what we've tried to preserve so far? And we're not only made up of radicals. We have scholars too, the ones who are continuing to uncover more knowledge, interpret and adjust the teachings accordingly. But we also have to guard ourselves against false allegations and slander or ridicules of our prophets. This is one of the things mentioned in the Koran that would signal dangerous times and break the unity and faith of Muslims. This is why we defend our Sacred Text and prophets fiercely. Does it call for the beheading of every bearer of false news? Goodness, no. But we have to do our damnedest for the lies not to spread, or educate people why the allegations are false.

Are all Muslims knowledgeable of the Arabic language enough to know whether they possess a real one vs an altered version? Most probably, no. I admit I'm not one of them either yet. But I'm learning, because I would like to be able to know. And yes, I am learning through translations. If I find a verse where the translation doesn't quite fit, I ask my friends. Sometimes they explain to me that some of the Arabic words don't have the proper translation into English or my language. Another reason why we've kept it in the original language.

I'm not saying I know everything about The Koran or the different cultures of Muslim countries. What each person knows is only a drop of water in the vast ocean. But the teachings I've learned and the values that I believe in are in line with the common sense morals and values, regardless of where I've lived. And nothing teaches that it's okay to degrade women, to hurt a child, or to kill anyone except in extreme circumstances such as war and situations where they oppress you and forbid you to practice your religion.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:13 PM   #21
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The translation argument is interesting, given how many Muslims understand classical arabic.
Agreed. But when we recite The Koran, we recite it in Arabic. Very few of us understand classical Arabic, but the ones who want to understand it, will try to learn it. I'm trying to make a point where many people (Muslims and non-Muslims) claim they have read the Koran and understood it, when they've only meant they've read the translations.

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I only need "protection" if I'm inferior to the "protector."
That's what you interpreted it to be. I don't interpret protected as being inferior.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:20 PM   #22
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That's what you interpreted it to be. I don't interpret protected as being inferior.

It puts us in the same category as children. Only when we are on fully equal footing, making our own decisions and taking our own risks and consequences, are we not inferior.

When we allow men to "protect" us as a gender, we have given up any equality and freedom we had.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:27 PM   #23
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but it is a choice for women.
As it all should be.

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No one deserves to be raped, but I do think that she knew and chose to take the higher risk of going out with skimpy clothes. It's just common sense.
Does the rapist have any responsibility here at all? Who decides what the constitutes "skimpy clothes"?

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And in Islam, if proven that the man raped the woman, he most certainly would not be able to get away with it, regardless of what he/she said and what she wore.
I wish this were true in many Muslim (and a few Christian) nations.

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And I'm not saying all women who were raped or sexually harassed must have dressed provocatively.
Good. But I wasn't aware that "dressing provocatively" was an invitation to sexual assault at all.



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Does it call for the beheading of every bearer of false news? Goodness, no. But we have to do our damnedest for the lies not to spread, or educate people why the allegations are false.
Every? Are there cases where the bearers of false news should be beheaded??


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And nothing teaches that it's okay to degrade women, to hurt a child, or to kill anyone except in extreme circumstances such as war and situations where they oppress you and forbid you to practice your religion.
But we both know that people will use any excuse, religious or otherwise to do all of these things.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:33 PM   #24
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Dressing provocatively can invoke sexual desires and therefore may put the women/men at risk in dangerous situations.
Rape is not about sexual desire, it's about power.

And mercifully, we (speaking of Western society) have managed to largely move on from the completely insulting, idiotic suggestion that a woman in a short skirt implicitly invited a man to ram his dick up her vagina. It has been a long road to get here, legally and judicially, and we're not 100% there (you will always have an idiot judge), but progress has been immense.

So long as people continue to rationalize away sexual assault by relying on things such as "provocative clothing", we will not have true equality for women.

The problem lies not in what the woman wears, but in what has convinced that man that he has the right to violate her.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:33 PM   #25
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But I never said that only men provide the protection for women. Women can provide protection too, and they have done so in the past. Did you mean the men must be protected too to be equal? Maybe it's lost in translation somehow
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:45 PM   #26
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Does the rapist have any responsibility here at all?
Haha, of course. I thought that's the point I was trying to make

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Good. But I wasn't aware that "dressing provocatively" was an invitation to sexual assault at all.
Again, the point I was trying to make. Sexual assault is never justified. But there are risks with dressing provocatively, whether it's men or women. And different people, different society have different standards on what's considered dressing provocatively.

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Every? Are there cases where the bearers of false news should be beheaded??
Should that have said 'any' instead of 'every'? No, in my opinion, there is not any case where the bearers of false news should be beheaded.

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But we both know that people will use any excuse, religious or otherwise to do all of these things.
I can't say I'm not familiar with that...
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:47 PM   #27
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Your post would've been good overall if you hadn't said this:

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Dressing provocatively can invoke sexual desires and therefore may put the women/men at risk in dangerous situations.

Do I think if the woman dressed provocatively in public she deserved to be raped? No one deserves to be raped, but I do think that she knew and chose to take the higher risk of going out with skimpy clothes. It's just common sense.
You are basically saying that if a woman wears revealing clothes, it is her fault that she gets raped or harassed. This is what I meant when Islamic leaders say that earlier. You are echoing what many in Islam, both male and female say.

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Really? Where do you hear that? Is that for every case that you know, or is it just the ones that the media care enough to broadcast?
No, its not the media who say Islam teaches if a woman get raped its her fault. I've read it on websites that teach about Islam (such as Beliefnet), I read a book by the sister in law to Osama bin Laden. Heck, years ago on FYM, we had a poster from Malaysia I think, who had the attitude that provocative dressing leads to rape.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:47 PM   #28
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The problem lies not in what the woman wears, but in what has convinced that man that he has the right to violate her.
eloquently said
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:16 PM   #29
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:16 PM   #30
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double post
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