Sarkozy: Burqas "Not Welcome" In France

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(AP) June 22

PARIS — President Nicolas Sarkozy declared Monday that the Islamic burqa is not welcome in France, branding the face-covering, body-length gown as a symbol of subservience that suppresses women's identities and turns them into "prisoners behind a screen."

But there was a mixed message in the tough words: an admission that the country's long-held principle of ethnic assimilation, which insists that newcomers shed their traditions and adapt to French culture, is failing because it doesn't give immigrants and their French-born children a fair chance.

In a high-profile speech to lawmakers in the historic chateau at Versailles, Sarkozy said the head-to-toe Muslim body coverings were in disaccord with French values-some of the strongest language against burqas from a European leader at a time when some Western officials have been seeking to ease tensions with the Muslim world.

"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause of the lawmakers gathered where French kings once held court.

"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement. I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."

Some Muslim leaders interpret the Quran to require that women wear a headscarf, niqab or burqa in the presence of a man who is not their husband or close relative.

France is home to Western Europe's largest population of Muslims, estimated at about 5 million. A small but growing group of French women wear burqas and niqabs, which either cloak the entire body or cover everything but the eyes.

Critics fear the issue of full-body coverings, which only involves a tiny minority of French Muslims, could increase discrimination against all Muslims who display their faith in any way.

Dalil Boubakeur, director of the largest Paris mosque, said Sarkozy's push to keep out the burqa is typical of French culture, but worried that he might inflame tensions with Muslims.

The president wanted to show that "the rules of life in France and that you can just bring in unjustified traditions," Boubakeur said.

"But you have to hope inshallah (God willing) that there won't be any ill-feeling, controversies or incidents in this confrontation between an Eastern idea and Western life," Boubakeur told the AP in a telephone interview. "Or then eastern Muslims will have to return to the Orient ... completely unable to assimilate and uncomfortable in a Western system."

But Sarkozy also said immigrants face economic challenges in France, and the government needs to do more to help them.

"Who doesn't see that our integration model isn't working any more?" Sarkozy said. "Instead of producing equality, it produces inequality. Instead of producing cohesion, it creates resentment."

The unemployment rate for immigrants and their French-born children is higher than the national average. Many children of immigrants complain of discrimination, saying they get passed over for jobs because they have "foreign-sounding" names. Frustration of many children of north African and black immigrants boiled over in France's three-week wave of riots in 2005.

The burqa comments made up only a few lines of Sarkozy's speech, which focused on the global economic crisis and a Cabinet shake-up expected to be announced Wednesday. The address was the first by a French president to parliament in 136 years; the last was in 1873, before lawmakers banned the practice to protect the separation of powers and keep the president in check. That ban was scrapped last year.

In France, the terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably. A burqa is a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with only a mesh screen over the eyes. A niqab is a full-body veil, often black, with slits for the eyes.

Muslim groups and government officials say it's hard to know how many women wear burqas and niqabs in France- though estimated to be at least in the hundreds. They are far less prevalent than simpler Muslim head scarves.

A 2004 law banned wearing the Muslim head scarf at public schools, along with Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses. That law sparked fierce debate both at home and abroad.

In a visit to Normandy earlier this month, President Barack Obama addressed France's headscarf ban, saying countries handle such issues with their national sensitivities and histories in mind, before adding: "I will tell you that in the United States our basic attitude is, is that we're not going to tell people what to wear."

The French government has been divided on a burqa ban. Immigration Minister Eric Besson said a ban would only "create tensions," while junior minister for human rights Rama Yade said she was open to a ban if it was aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burqa.

The burqa has come under criticism in some parts of Europe. In 2003, Sweden's National Agency for Education gave schools the right to ban pupils from wearing burqas if it interferes with the teaching or safety regulations.

The Dutch government last year described the burqa and other clothing that covers the face, as "undesirable," but the ruling coalition stopped short of attempting a ban amid concerns of possible religious discrimination. But the government did say it would work toward banning burqas in schools and among public servants, saying that they stand in the way of good communication.

Later Monday, Sarkozy hosted a state dinner with Sheik Hamad Bin Jassem Al Thani of Qatar _ a Persian Gulf state where women often wear niqabs. The emir was joined by one of his wives, Sheika Mozah, whose head was covered in an elegant turban.
 
"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement. I want to say it solemnly," he said.
It's really not for him to put words in his own citizens' mouths in this way. Debates about the acceptability of veiling one's face in certain specific situations are one thing, but this is simply not his place to dictate.

Props to him for openly acknowledging the reality of France's problems with economically assimilating its large immigrant populations, though.
 
Sarkozy has an interesting view on assimilation or integration here. For years, the French government had built whole areas around the greater French cities, in order to provide housing for the large groups of North African immigrants who were coming to France after the decolonization of Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria. That was the biggest mistake the French government made. The problem was that, in this way, these immigrants didn't become part of the daily French life and culture, this lead, unintendedly, to segregation, which can lead to xenophobia and racism on both sides.

It is very naive to say that a burqua ban will help to assimilate these immigrants in the French society. There is always a freedom of religion and opinion, wether you like it or not. Instead of helping muslim women who are being oppressed, they will feel like being pushed away again, so they will turn to their own culture instead. This was the case in Holland after member of parliament Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a feminist ex muslim woman born in Somalia, made it her task to liberate oppressed muslim women in the Netherlands. Her intentions were good, I think, but she was too radical and eventually the muslim women turned away and she became unreliable. Not all these women are oppressed and if they are, their emancipation should be one step at the time. That is better than bashing the Qur'an right in their face!

The best thing a government can do is bannig burqas on the work floor, because it obstructs communication between people and it is rude (in the western world) when you can't see the facial expression of the other person. I agree that wearing a burqa or a niqab should be discouraged. When a woman wants to express her religion she can always wear a hijab (headscarf) which shows the face.

More factors Sarkozy should consider is the deep rooted discrimination and the spreading of immigrants, in order to stop 'ghetto formation'.
 
It's really not for him to put words in his own citizens' mouths in this way. Debates about the acceptability of veiling one's face in certain specific situations are one thing, but this is simply not his place to dictate.

He looks like Napoleon (little bit), he is as short as Napoleon, how could he not dictate his nation. :wink:

After Sarkozy almost single-handedly destroyed all prospects and efforts of integrating the great number of French immigrants he now looks for straws to lay the blame on.
 
Sarkozy has an interesting view on assimilation or integration here. For years, the French government had built whole areas around the greater French cities, in order to provide housing for the large groups of North African immigrants who were coming to France after the decolonization of Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria. That was the biggest mistake the French government made. The problem was that, in this way, these immigrants didn't become part of the daily French life and culture, this lead, unintendedly, to segregation, which can lead to xenophobia and racism on both sides.

It is very naive to say that a burqua ban will help to assimilate these immigrants in the French society. There is always a freedom of religion and opinion, wether you like it or not. Instead of helping muslim women who are being oppressed, they will feel like being pushed away again, so they will turn to their own culture instead. This was the case in Holland after member of parliament Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a feminist ex muslim woman born in Somalia, made it her task to liberate oppressed muslim women in the Netherlands. Her intentions were good, I think, but she was too radical and eventually the muslim women turned away and she became unreliable. Not all these women are oppressed and if they are, their emancipation should be one step at the time. That is better than bashing the Qur'an right in their face!

More factors Sarkozy should consider is the deep rooted discrimination and the spreading of immigrants, in order to stop 'ghetto formation'.

:up: Great post

But i do disagree with banning of the burqas altogether. For a lot of women it is totally ingrained in their society and their sense of self. If suddenly we were told that wearing a bra, or covering our breasts was wrong and debasing and we were denied cloth to cover them, we would feel untterly exposed and uncomfortable. Just like those women who believe that it is a sin and an unbelieviable humiliation for another man to see their face or their body. We come from this issue from a society where the body is not as "reverend" as the islamic society. So we have a different opinion. Not every woman who wears it burqa is forced into it and unhappy, but in fact find it comforting and familiar. Sarqoksy needs to realise when an opinion is an opinion and not FACT.
 
:up: Great post

So we have a different opinion. Not every woman who wears it burqa is forced into it and unhappy, but in fact find it comforting and familiar. Sarqoksy needs to realise when an opinion is an opinion and not FACT.


Last year there was a discussion in a Dutch newspaper between veiled Islamic women and Dutch non Islamic women.
One of the Islamic women said something remarkable: that in the western society women are the most oppressed of all, because they had to keep up with the image of beauty: staying slim and young and have a nice haircut, they are expected to look like Hollywood stars every day. Especially young girls are taught to take care of their body like that and it's hard for them to keep up with that beauty image.
These western women are expected to have a fulltime job and are expected to take care of a family as well.
She also mentioned the commercials and billboards where women are shown half naked, even in a Dove of Nivea commercial and the western clothing industry whose designers only consider women with small sizes.

I've never thought about that, but she kept me thinking, I am a woman who freaks out when I gain a few pounds, wondering if I am still able to fit in my skinny jeans, and at the same time I think I am emancipated...
 
Last year there was a discussion in a Dutch newspaper between veiled Islamic women and Dutch non Islamic women.
One of the Islamic women said something remarkable: that in the western society women are the most oppressed of all, because they had to keep up with the image of beauty: staying slim and young and have a nice haircut, they are expected to look like Hollywood stars every day. Especially young girls are taught to take care of their body like that and it's hard for them to keep up with that beauty image.
These western women are expected to have a fulltime job and are expected to take care of a family as well.
She also mentioned the commercials and billboards where women are shown half naked, even in a Dove of Nivea commercial and the western clothing industry whose designers only consider women with small sizes.


That's an interesting point. I guess you could argue how much of that is self imposed by women vs how much of the oppression in other places is imposed by others-men, the government, religion, etc. But I do agree that beauty and thinness and do-it/have-it-all standards can be oppressive-it's up to us though to decide how much we want to conform so at least we have that. And we can't be legally killed for not living up to those standards.
 
Last year there was a discussion in a Dutch newspaper between veiled Islamic women and Dutch non Islamic women.
One of the Islamic women said something remarkable: that in the western society women are the most oppressed of all, because they had to keep up with the image of beauty: staying slim and young and have a nice haircut, they are expected to look like Hollywood stars every day. Especially young girls are taught to take care of their body like that and it's hard for them to keep up with that beauty image.
These western women are expected to have a fulltime job and are expected to take care of a family as well.
She also mentioned the commercials and billboards where women are shown half naked, even in a Dove of Nivea commercial and the western clothing industry whose designers only consider women with small sizes.

I've never thought about that, but she kept me thinking, I am a woman who freaks out when I gain a few pounds, wondering if I am still able to fit in my skinny jeans, and at the same time I think I am emancipated...

I see your point, but at least women in the western society get to choose whether or not they listen to these expectations. Oppression implies lack of choice.
 
Mrs. Springsteen and Nadie, that's true. We have the right to choose and we don't get killed or arrested for that. But I think the majority of women in the western world have this kind of oppression by fashion, men, and other women in their heads.
 
I don't actually think a lot of these woman are "opressed". This life is all they know. They may be surrounded by different woman but the burqa is something they know. If they are truly unhappy with it, there are plenty of moderate muslim countries they can live in and not have to follow the strict law. I'm not saying every woman is not abused and held captive by their husbands, i've read a lot of stories but then we don't have a perfect society either.

I just think, who are we to put our "ideas" of what a woman should do and wear on another society. Its not breaking the law to cover up, we should be tolerant of others choices and not turn it into some feminist womans right argument.

interesting idea too bonoa what that woman brought up. It seems we can all be slaves to some ideal.
 
If it were Christians making women obey modesty codes I suspect the attitude around here would be markedly different; some forms of religious misogyny are more acceptable than others.
 
I just think, who are we to put our "ideas" of what a woman should do and wear on another society. Its not breaking the law to cover up, we should be tolerant of others choices and not turn it into some feminist womans right argument.

Who is anyone to put their ideas of what a woman should do and wear on another. I agree with the idea of tolerance, but I personally find it very difficult to tolerate rules that are designed to oppress others.

It's not really about "turning it into some feminist womans right argument." It IS one.
 
I don't actually think a lot of these woman are "opressed". This life is all they know. They may be surrounded by different woman but the burqa is something they know. If they are truly unhappy with it, there are plenty of moderate muslim countries they can live in and not have to follow the strict law. I'm not saying every woman is not abused and held captive by their husbands, i've read a lot of stories but then we don't have a perfect society either.

That's true, the burqa is something they know. That can also be the problem; a lot of these strict muslim women in France know that they have the right to choose, the difference is that they grew up in an area where only immigrants live, not the 'original' French. Most immigrant groups are closed communities, especially Moroccan and Algerian groups, everybody keeps an eye on each other. If a woman stands up for herself, she will suffer the consequences.
I'm not saying that they are all oppressed, but there are a lot of hidden stories there.


I just think, who are we to put our "ideas" of what a woman should do and wear on another society. Its not breaking the law to cover up, we should be tolerant of others choices and not turn it into some feminist womans right argument.

True. These women have the right to cover up. There are lots of women who converted to Islam, or were already Islamic and choose to wear a burqa or niqab. That in spite of all the protest they got from their families.
In many muslim countries, like Egypt for example, women start to wear a burqa or niqab when they go to college or university, it's like a subculture, created around the women's self awareness and even political awareness.
I still think that wearing a burqa or niqab should be discouraged (not forbidden) in a western country, because in the culture we live in it's no more that polite when you can read someone's facial expression in a conversation. When I'm in an Arab country that's, of course, another story.




If it were Christians making women obey modesty codes I suspect the attitude around here would be markedly different; some forms of religious misogyny are more acceptable than others.

But that's only because the majority of people in the western world are christians. But also in Egypt many people say that these veiled women are not muslims, they are crazy. The majority of Egyptian women just wears a hijab (headscarf). The burqa and niqab are often associated with terrorism, while that's often not the case.
I've stayed in El Minya (Middle Egypt) for a few days during a study trip and that's considered as the most conservative city in Egypt. Many members of Jamaat al-Islamiyya, a radical muslim group, are from that town. There was police everywhere and we were not allowed to leave the hotel without a guard. We eventually just sneaked out and found ourselves in a very friendly town!
 
Nobody wears a burqa in France, it was just an indirect answer to Obama's speech in Egypt. And a way to distract people from his poor economic results.

"Immigrants" living in the suburbs of Paris or other big cities are not Algerian, Malian, whatever, they are born and raised in France. They are normal French citizens. The problem is social, not racial, the access to better living standards has been more difficult for the last 30 years for everybody.

Concerning the veil problem problem, muslims know very well it's forbidden to wear one in public places, as it is forbidden to have a cross, David star or anything related to religion. You can pray as much as you want and the way you want. But you do it in your home. It's part of the French citizenship contract.
The debate is close and will never be opened again in spite of some extremist muslims from abroad or moronic traditionnalist christians who need to talk for nothing sometimes to show they exist.

And for people who wants to split hairs and start debating over the image of women, etc, let's get straight : burqas is at the same level than excision, both are ways to humiliate women and transform them into under-citizens and under-human. The French citizenship contract is not perfect but at least it forbids that and protect women from middle-ages barbaric customs.
 
And for people who wants to split hairs and start debating over the image of women, etc, let's get straight : burqas is at the same level than excision, both are ways to humiliate women and transform them into under-citizens and under-human. The French citizenship contract is not perfect but at least it forbids that and protect women from middle-ages barbaric customs.

Very simplistic analysis, in my opinion. I can see the merits of France's citizenship contract, but they wouldn't really need it if they had regulated immigration properly in the first place.
 
If it were Christians making women obey modesty codes I suspect the attitude around here would be markedly different; some forms of religious misogyny are more acceptable than others.

A culture of wearing a burqua or hijab is not necessarily prima facie misogynistic, for reasons other posters already mentioned.

Recently there have been accusations that a Malaysian prince abused his bride:

Malaysian prince accused of 'kidnapping' - Monsters and Critics


Would you blame this on Islam?

I wouldn't, it sounds like a power structure where the aristocracy are not accountable enough. Which has nothing got to do with religion.

What about accusations that the Western fashion industry allows teenage girls to be subjected to similar treatment?



I have said all along, we should get our house in order first before we go pompously lecturing the Islamic world on its faults.
 
If it were Christians making women obey modesty codes I suspect the attitude around here would be markedly different
The main issue is whether someone with great political power (e.g. Sarkozy, but could just as easily be some influential lobbying group etc.) is in the right to seek to regulate the clothing worn by female adherents of some particular religious sect on grounds of 'protecting women's rights.' It's not whether people in here would wish living by that sect's clothing or other rules for themselves or their daughters. In our culture, it's doubtless true that if you had some highly visible Christian sect requiring very unusual-looking dress of its female members under 'modesty codes,' then many individuals outside that sect would feel highly confident in their ability to grasp all the nuances people within it find in those customs, and show that in how they form and express their personal opinions on it. But I think to a considerable extent that's justified, since as Bonoa said, ours is a majority-Christian culture profoundly shaped by Christian social, ethical, etc. traditions, so that even if you've never been a practicing Christian yourself, chances are you have a pretty on-target intuitive grasp of how something like 'modesty in dress,' both in concept and in social application, looks and feels through Christian eyes (or more correctly, Western Christian eyes). Most of us would be considerably more reluctant to assume we're as well-equipped to do so concerning the varieties of traditional Muslim women's dress, and not unreasonably so. Additionally, Western women who are well-traveled in the 'non-Western world' may have had numerous, direct personal experiences with the reality that projecting aspects of the gender system they know so well from their own culture onto another's, based on initial impressions of everyday customs such as dress, can sometimes lead to assumptions re: 'How They Think About Gender' that turn out upon further experience to be quite off-base.
That's true, the burqa is something they know. That can also be the problem; a lot of these strict muslim women in France know that they have the right to choose, the difference is that they grew up in an area where only immigrants live, not the 'original' French. Most immigrant groups are closed communities, especially Moroccan and Algerian groups, everybody keeps an eye on each other. If a woman stands up for herself, she will suffer the consequences.
I'm not saying that they are all oppressed, but there are a lot of hidden stories there.
I agree; this is very much the core of the dilemma. It rankles to acknowledge the reality that the freedom of religious/cultural minority communities to perpetuate their customs amongst themselves invariably means that some of their members (and in almost any community really, female members particularly) will wind up being forced, against their will, to comply with customs which can significantly determine the longterm course and potential of their lives, even though the legal means to prevent this are technically available to them as individuals. But the only really surefire solution to that, state intervention in the freedom of these communities (and by extension every individual in them) to observe their customs, may set precedents that seem equally loathsome, again not unreasonably.
burqas is at the same level than excision, both are ways to humiliate women and transform them into under-citizens and under-human.
That's a pretty extreme overstatement. 'Female circumcision' is absolutely more deserving of urgent legal and educational measures to abolish it once and for all, since it has dramatic (and easily verifiable) adverse medical effects on not only the ability to experience any sexual pleasure whatsoever, but even worse, on safety in childbirth. Just because you (hypothetically) might look on a woman wearing a burqa or niqab with contempt or consdescending pity doesn't mean she'll embrace you as her savior and defender of her honor if you banned the garment altogether; her investments in her (sub)culture's worldview and traditions are likely a good bit more complicated than that. As is true for every one of us.
 
Following an imbroglio in France in late June when President Nicolas Sarkozy declared the burqa to be unwelcome and against French values, al Qaeda is threatening retaliation. According to CNN, the extremist group has listed threats on extremist Islamic websites that include:

"We will not tolerate such provocations and injustices, and we will take our revenge from France ... by every means and wherever we can reach them ... Our Muslim brothers in France in particular and in Europe in general are increasingly troubled by the practices of the French politicians and their leaders, and their constant harassments of our people regarding the burqa issue"

The statement was signed by one Abu Musab Abdul Wadud who claims to be the "commander of al Qaeda in North Africa [Islamic Maghreb]." CNN notes that it is unable to authenticate the statement.

Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) was originally a militant Islamist movement against Algeria's secular government in the early 90s. It has since spread its geographic and political influence. According to the Council on Foreign Relations:

Terrorist activity in North Africa has been reinvigorated in the last few years by a local Algerian Islamist group turned pan-Maghreb jihadi organization: al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM). A Sunni group that previously called itself the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), the organization has taken responsibility for a number of terrorist attacks in the region, declared its intention to attack Western targets, and sent a squad of jihadis to Iraq. Experts believe these actions suggest widening ambitions within the group's leadership, now pursuing a more global, sophisticated, and better-financed direction. Long categorized as part of a strictly domestic insurgency against Algeria's military government, AQIM claims to be the local franchise operation for al-Qaeda, a worrying development for a region that has been relatively peaceful since the bloody Algerian civil war of the 1990s drew to a close.
 
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