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Old 07-05-2013, 11:57 AM   #31
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I get more cautious when it comes to children. The children are not "consenting" to anything. While my conscious is clear on this issue - gay/lesbian parenting is a false model for a family - I'm not sure I would say that I would make it downright illegal in our present society anymore than I can make bad heterosexual parenting illegal. However, I would personally discourage any would be gay/lesbian parents from adopting or artificially inseminating.
I'm a bit troubled by the term "false model." To me it implies that a gay couple can't be good parents. Do you mean that implication, or simply that it strays from your "ideal" too much?

To explore "false model" a bit further, is it only the lack if opposing genders that makes it so? As far as raising children to be well adjusted, productive members of society, I can think of several factors far more important than gender.

I guess I'd like you to explain that term in a bit more detail if you could.

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3) Now, to fellow Christians, I would pray that they examine their hearts and minds and ask - is this part of God's intention? Is more like the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of Pop Culture? Is this is a step forward to making earth more like God's realm - or a step back?
To me, God's pretty clear on the primacy of love over all else. Children need loving parents. As is evidenced by pac mule and countless others, they don't need one of each gender or even more than one in order to feel loved and live happy, productive lives. I think God's intention (as unknowable as that is by human hearts and minds) is not to bar children from access to the love of capable, committed and nurturing parents simply because of gender role issues.

I think, quite frankly, that God is most likely shaking his head at the obsession over homosexuality that so many of his followers can't seem to get past.
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:59 AM   #32
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To me, God's pretty clear on the primacy of love over all else. Children need loving parents. As is evidenced by pac mule and countless others, they don't need one of each gender or even more than one in order to feel loved and live happy, productive lives. I think God's intention (as unknowable as that is by human hearts and minds) is not to bar children from access to the love of capable, committed and nurturing parents simply because of gender role issues.
This is what I was trying to say but couldn't quite find the words. Thank you
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:03 PM   #33
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I cannot picture a gay couple standing before God and Him telling them that their raising of children was wrong, regardless of whether their homosexuality is a sin or not. I can only picture Him praising them for giving a child a home and family who wouldn't have otherwise had one.
Well said.

And I know it's been said several times recently, but I'm really encouraged by the level of discourse that's been happening in here lately. It's really awesome to see and take part in.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:06 PM   #34
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While my conscious is clear on this issue - gay/lesbian parenting is a false model for a family


you don't think gay people can form a family?
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:18 PM   #35
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Do you reckon it was part of God's intention that some people are excluded from things that are normal to others?

God is love, and he loves everyone equally. But some more equal than others?
Yes, God is love, and he loves us all equally. However, we are born into weakness - with our own mind always set on the self until it is taught/saved to do otherwise.

I don't understand why things are the way they are. I do not understand why God seems to punish us for an act that took place thousands - perhaps tens of thousands of years ago. I do understand why Jesus is delaying his coming. I do not understand why I was born to be so weak - and then have that held against me at my Judgement.

Yet - despite such ignorance, I am learning to trust the fact that God must be all loving and perfectly just - otherwise He would not be God, because He is by definition all loving and perfectly just. So, when I come across Scripture and I don't see perfect harmony - I more easily accept that I may not fully comprehend the why, that God is often a Mystery - but that I will obey what is written as best as I can understand it. Why? Because over the years it almost always seems to work out best for myself - and those around me. In other words - Scripture, and in particular the New Testament - has earned its trust with me.

I still pray for healing in my areas of weakness. I will easily concede I'm still self-willed and miss the mark very often. I know my logic is sloppy and my language is non-persuasive. But I do know this - the stone, it has been moved - and this leads to me realize that 1) I need healing and 2) that I desire healing.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus approaches a man that had been paralyzed for 38 years: "When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” (John 5:6). Over the years I have found this question striking - do you want to be healed? Of course I do - or so I thought. I always thought it was obvious I wanted healing until I looked at certain aspects of my own heart, and realized - heck no, I like this or that about myself, it's part of my identity now - why would I want to be healed? So, the question that Jesus asks is less about asking permission to heal - and more of a challenge.

Since I know that many people here could care less about the Bible. That's fine. So let's take the same challenge into the world of biotechnology. It has been argued here in the past, that homosexuality is most often genetic, not environmental - that it is programmed by DNA. I've also heard it stated, "why would I choose this life for myself?" Well, we've mapped the genome, and it's only a matter of time before we can modify those genes. Would people at that time then choose to be "healed" in a very real sense of their afflictions, even their orientation?
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:20 PM   #36
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you don't think gay people can form a family?
I think a baseball team or army unit can form a family. But that is not the model we were discussing.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:33 PM   #37
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Everyone biologically has the ability to be a parent, either by them-self or with a partner, opposite sex or not. Should my mother and grandmother not have raised me and given me up for adoption instead since I wouldn't have a male parent figure?
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:38 PM   #38
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I've actually had a religious upbringing, so I know the story you meant. The fun part is, my perspective on the same event is rather different. The whole question do you "want" to be healed to me shows that us humans are capable of much more than we think.

Too often, people give up on things, their self esteem gets low, they don't even bother because they are convinced they won't make it. Yet self esteem is a weird thing. Once you start thinking you have it, people treat you differently and you'll actually gain confidence by the way they treat you. Same appllies for perseverance. If you want to achieve things, you have to try and believe you can do it. Only then you can persevere. You have to WANT it.

Funnily enough it could be said about this case. You may not understand homosexuality, so you may not accept it as okay. But in order to do so, you're going to need to want to understand. And I think that's exactly where the problem lies with a lot of religious people.
They do not want to understand...
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:39 PM   #39
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I'm a bit troubled by the term "false model." To me it implies that a gay couple can't be good parents. Do you mean that implication, or simply that it strays from your "ideal" too much?
Yes, it strays too far. In the model I gave - which you can disagree with - is that of a male father and female mother with children. Now, the model can be incomplete (no kids, one parent leaves or dies), but inserting a second mother or second father makes it false to the definition.

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To explore "false model" a bit further, is it only the lack if opposing genders that makes it so? As far as raising children to be well adjusted, productive members of society, I can think of several factors far more important than gender.
Those are all important, Diemen - I could never deny that. And if gay/lesbian parents do adopt children - I would certainly hope and pray that the best can be made of the situation.

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I guess I'd like you to explain that term in a bit more detail if you could.
I hope my responses above at least helped you understand position - even though it is not persuasive. I'm not that eloquent or as equipped to defend this point as others may be.

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To me, God's pretty clear on the primacy of love over all else. Children need loving parents. As is evidenced by pac mule and countless others, they don't need one of each gender or even more than one in order to feel loved and live happy, productive lives.
True. But pac mule also shared his desire for a father, even though his mother and grandmother made the best of the situation. Homosexual parents are purposely denying a mother or father when they choose to have children.

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I think God's intention (as unknowable as that is by human hearts and minds) is not to bar children from access to the love of capable, committed and nurturing parents simply because of gender role issues.
Yes, love is supreme no doubt. But in this case - there is some amount of choice involved. For example - if we have two couples (one heterosexual and one homosexual) that are equal in almost every modern worldly sense (income, education, stability...etc) - and both are capable of offering a child love, would it be best for the child to go to the homosexual couple of the heterosexual couple?

Again - it seems that the only defense for gay/lesbian parenting that I'm reading is that there can be love despite the less than optimal circumstance the child is placed into, not because of it.

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I think, quite frankly, that God is most likely shaking his head at the obsession over homosexuality that so many of his followers can't seem to get past.
That is probably very true - and it is not my usual topic among my friends and family. Yet, for some reason, in this forum - it generates the most discussion.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:45 PM   #40
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Funnily enough it could be said about this case. You may not understand homosexuality, so you may not accept it as okay. But in order to do so, you're going to need to want to understand. And I think that's exactly where the problem lies with a lot of religious people.
They do not want to understand...
Good twist

You may very well be right.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:49 PM   #41
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Everyone biologically has the ability to be a parent, either by them-self or with a partner, opposite sex or not. Should my mother and grandmother not have raised me and given me up for adoption instead since I wouldn't have a male parent figure?
Of course no pac mule. It sounds like your mother and grandmother did an amazing job and you were fortunate to have them in your life. But it sounds like they teamed up because they loved you and cared for you already. However, by your own admission - you did still long for a father.

A homosexual couple that wants to adopt or artificially inseminate has already determined the child will be denied a mother or a father.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #42
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True. But pac mule also shared his desire for a father, even though his mother and grandmother made the best of the situation. Homosexual parents are purposely denying a mother or father when they choose to have children.
This part stood out for me. By saying homosexual parents are purposely denying a mother or father to their children, is basically criticizing their sexual orientation as a whole. Homosexuals are not going to get involved with someone of the opposite sex just so their future children will have two parents of different genders. They just can't and won't. They naturally want someone of their gender, so if they want to marry and raise children, they will do so with another man or woman. It seems like your comment indicates homosexuals should be forced to share their lives with someone of the opposite sex for the sake of their children, which just can't be done for numerous reasons.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #43
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I'm also confused by the term false model. A model, in the sense that I think you are using it, is simply a form or a pattern. In what way is it false? It factually exists- it is not a mirage or a falsehood. It is not false in the sense of a false proposition in logic. It's not a fallacy- it really does what it claims to do, which is raise children. And it does it well- statistically speaking the children of straights have nothing on the children of gays. It is not a false model- it is a real existing model that works.

I think what you mean to claim is that it is a morally wrong model. But other than the fact that your holy scripture says so (and it doesn't really speak about gay identification or gays raising kids at all, come to think of it, just the act of sex) there is no reason to base social policy on this claim. There's no evidence that it's a harmful or ineffective model at all.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:01 PM   #44
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I'm also confused by the term false model. A model, in the sense that I think you are using it, is simply a form or a pattern. In what way is it false? It factually exists- it is not a mirage or a falsehood. It is not false in the sense of a false proposition in logic. It's not a fallacy- it really does what it claims to do, which is raise children. And it does it well- statistically speaking the children of straights have nothing on the children of gays. It is not a false model- it is a real existing model that works.
Calling a hatchback a sedan does not make it so. A hatchback is a certain model with certain features that a sedan does not have. If someone is saying there is no difference, then I am saying their assumption is false.

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there is no reason to base social policy on this claim.
Probably true.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:02 PM   #45
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Based on that NY Times magazine article I posted, it seems like children of same sex parents could help make things easier for heterosexual couples - if those kids grow up to be heterosexual themselves, which is very likely. The young woman in the article talked about how some forms of the heterosexual world turned her off because it was ridden with sexism. But she's had good, healthy relationships with men who didn't hold onto the patriarchal view of straight relationships. I just think the acceptance of homosexuality in general can open the door for more kindness between the genders once we see some gender roles and stereotypes aren't needed anymore, and should never have been needed.
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