Same-Sex Parenting - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-05-2013, 02:23 AM   #16
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 55,037
Local Time: 10:45 PM
I saw that on Facebook. Had a good laugh.

While I'm a passionate supporter of same-sex marriage, and I also don't have a problem with same-sex parenting, I can sympathise with some of the arguments that get made against it.

I think having strong male and female influences in one's life is really important. There are things I only feel comfortable talking to Mum about, and there are things I would only ever bring up with Dad. I've had some really good, deep chats with Mum that I haven't with Dad, but Dad and I bonded over going to the Bathurst 1000 three or four times. Of course you can have male and female influences in your life without having both a mother and a father, but I can understand why people think that having a mother and a father is an ideal.

But the simple fact of the matter is that isn't always possible. And when you consider how many people in the world have grown up with single parents, or adoptive parents, or a guardian, or a same-sex couple, and grown up to be fine, and when you consider how many people have grown up with "the ideal" and gone on to live a life of struggle or hardship or whatever, then it's ridiculous to suggest that same-sex couples shouldn't be able to have children.

And as Irvine says - because same-sex couples can't have children through sex, the decision to have a child through adoption or IVF or surrogacy is one that has had a great deal of thought go into it, and really, that child is probably much more likely to get a good start in life than one born to two drunk and horny 19-year-olds who didn't use a condom.

The thing I find most offensive is when people suggest or imply that same-sex couples or kidnapping children or removing a child's "right" to a mother and a father.
__________________

__________________
cobl04 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 02:35 AM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
Are you suggesting that same sex parenting is less than optimal?
Yes.
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 02:39 AM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
that child is probably much more likely to get a good start in life than one born to two drunk and horny 19-year-olds who didn't use a condom.
Not really a fair comparison is it? You are taking the best case scenario and comparing it to the worst case scenario.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 02:42 AM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post

How do you feel about single straight women, often of considerable means, who have children on their own?
Are you referring to women that intentionally have and then raise a child without a father? If you are - then no, I don't think it is wise - with or without tons of money.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 03:24 AM   #20
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 55,037
Local Time: 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post

Not really a fair comparison is it? You are taking the best case scenario and comparing it to the worst case scenario.
Of course not, and it can go both ways, I just offer it as a scenario to those who say a mother and a father is *always* preferable.
__________________
cobl04 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 04:20 AM   #21
Galeonbroad
 
Galeongirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Schoo Fishtank
Posts: 70,773
Local Time: 12:45 PM
Carrying over from the marriage thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
You're welcome - but in defense of Indy, I tend to think that he will push to the edge of an opinion in order to see the limits of the logic/feeling of a particular issue. To that extent he succeeds for the Right where others here succeed for the Left (and he is surely outnumbered).

I think I was more like that 10 years ago. Now, I try to speak more from my own conscience - which is more subjective I know - because it seems more and more to me that being truly objective is downright impossible. Sometimes my views seem Left, sometimes Right - but I truly don't care about that anymore.

What you just said is exaclty what I meant, Indy tries to pass off things as facts and leaves them at that, while I'm more interested in his opinion and the reason behind it. That's why I've tried to discuss with him various times, but he always ignored me for some reason..


Quote:
I think that a single parent situation is certainly unfortunate and not the ideal. However, I still to think that even this is better than homosexual parents and please let me explain my reasoning - as weak as it may be. With a single parent - the model is broken, cut in half, but it's still a remnant of the actual model (and perhaps a step-parent will eventual come in). Homosexual parents are not a model at all (as I define "parents" with roles of a female mother and male father).

Now, I grew up in a broken home. I had a troubled childhood and spent time with a single mother, then an abusive step-dad, foster homes and then Catholic shelter for boys (believe it or not, I was not touched by any priests - instead I found them to be very intelligent and caring).

But continuing on your logic, I see what you mean there. If the parent eventually gets a new relationship, the model is there again. But, now let's see the situation that I know a lot of lesbian couples have for their children, and how I'd want it to be for my own children, when the time is right(and well, depending if I end up with a woman or a man, of course, but seeing as I have a girlfriend atm I'll just stay hopeful that things work out between us).
They conceive by a sperm donor they know, usually a close friend of the family. This way, the child actually has a father, and the biological father spends time with the child every now and then, he's just not in the relationship with the mother. So the child has both role models, plus an extra mother. That should fit a bit closer to you ideals then, right? Even though the father doesn't live in the same house, he can still be there to fulfill his role model expecntancies.

Quote:
I had crappy foster parents that hit me over the head with Pentecostalism (took many years for the Holy Spirit to overcome my bias against Christianity because of this family) - and in general I think it's fair to say that I lacked the unconditional love children require (well, I got a lot from Grandma - Grandma's rock). That being said - had I been sent to a homosexual couple during those crazy years I'm not sure I would not have survived the confusion, the social stigma, and yes, my own homophobia (the condition which the current media labels heterosexuals that simply cannot understand homosexual tendencies). I do not wish them harm - but to this day, I must admit, I still get a sense of shock when I see two men holding hands walking around Disneyland.
You state that you wuold've been confused if you had been sent to a gay foster couple. But most of these cases we're talking about aren't adoption of older children, as far as I know. What would've happened if you were adopted as a baby, and raised by gay parents? We can't possibly know that, but I would think that you might have a different view, as every child considers their parents their heroes at some point. And children tend to care less about race and everything we all stigmatize or may have stigmatized (see the notable story in the Boy with the Striped Pyjamas for example).

I know a boy who has been raised in the construction I spoke of above, and he doesn't hate his mothers at all. He's rather proud of them, and his biological father that they made things work just for him. He's not gay himself(we dated for a while, that's how I know him, but we're good friends now), but he doesn't seem to have any issue with his upbringing. Sure there were tough times, but every kid goes through those. I was raised by straight parents, my dad is an absolute asshole, I rarely take friends home because of that. In my childhood most of my friends were afraid to come over because of that. Yet I still ended up just fine..
Would I have done better in a situation where I had two parents love me? Probably. Would I have cared whether they were male, female or one of each? Probably not. I'd rather have two loving mothers than a loving mother and an asshole father...

Can you elaborate why you find two men/women holding hands shocking?

I wouldn't call you a homophobe per se, you admit you don't understand homosexuality, that's fine. At least you can talk to one in a civilized matter.

But unless you hate gay people, and want them to die or get tortured because of who they are, or try to 'cure' them like some priests, I don't consider you a homophobe.

Quote:
I will admit I can be wrong on this, since I cannot look into the hearts of people. I guess it seems to me that it's forcing pieces of puzzle together we know don't fit - and it isn't the children crying for a homosexual couple to adopt them. These little ones with broken lives, all they want is a mommy and a daddy, the model - and I think they deserve that and we should give that to them as much as possible.
To your last point: I don't think these broken children want a mommy and a daddy. These broken children need and want somebody to love them.. I don't think they give a damn about the gender.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceRyan View Post
And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
Galeongirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 06:57 AM   #22
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
jeevey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rue St. Divine
Posts: 4,095
Local Time: 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Yes.
I think it would be fair for you to give an explanation of why it's necessarily less optimal than a straight family conceiving. Specifically, what is the trouble with it being two of the same? Really, truly examine your assumptions here. What is it that straights are capable of doing reliably that gays are not capable of doing at all?

Here's a question to consider while you think of it. The common saw it that children need male and female influences in their lives. This makes a very big assumption that the way we "do" gender and gender roles is good and worth perpetuating. Looking at our society, there is a lot of room for argument there. There's a lot about gender roles that we DON'T want to perpetuate, frankly. The way femininity is tied to sexualization and appearance and masculinity is associated with lack of emotional connection and dominance is simply not healthy. So what is it that straights can provide here that gays can't, when in fact they are more adept at creating a balanced and equitable gender that we are? Children need men and women in their lives, yes. But there's no reason children gays can't have that. It just won't be in a love relationship between the people who live in their house.
__________________
jeevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 07:32 AM   #23
Galeonbroad
 
Galeongirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Schoo Fishtank
Posts: 70,773
Local Time: 12:45 PM
Jeevey, check the last pages of the SSM thread, AEON explained it in more detail there.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceRyan View Post
And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
Galeongirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 09:06 AM   #24
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post

Not really a fair comparison is it? You are taking the best case scenario and comparing it to the worst case scenario.

But if you're going to ban SSA, you must be willing to say that, yes, always and in all ways, couples with different gentalia are better parents.

The Lohans are a better family than Neil Patrick Harris and his husband.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 09:09 AM   #25
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post

Are you referring to women that intentionally have and then raise a child without a father? If you are - then no, I don't think it is wise - with or without tons of money.
But would your prevet them from doing that by law? Or, heck, it's CA, by popular referendum.

After all, society should be able to make its own laws about adoption, right? Why don't you have a Proposition 9 where you bad not just all adoptions but all children from being born to anyone other than married heterosexuals.

And if we're thinking about the best interestsof the child, the parents must not only be married but they must have health insurance. And they must make at least $50k per year.

It's the ideal and what's best for the children. Our laws should reflect these beliefs.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 11:31 AM   #26
Refugee
 
The_Pac_Mule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,342
Local Time: 06:45 AM
Didn't Russia just ban same sex couples from adopting? Of course they also banned Americans from adopting Russian kids so I think it's less about them hating gays than Russia just really fucking hates orphans.
__________________
The_Pac_Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 11:33 AM   #27
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
But would your prevet them from doing that by law? Or, heck, it's CA, by popular referendum.

After all, society should be able to make its own laws about adoption, right? Why don't you have a Proposition 9 where you bad not just all adoptions but all children from being born to anyone other than married heterosexuals.

And if we're thinking about the best interestsof the child, the parents must not only be married but they must have health insurance. And they must make at least $50k per year.

It's the ideal and what's best for the children. Our laws should reflect these beliefs.
There are many good points made in several of the posts - so I will do my best to address them in a general sense.

1) My biggest internal conflict is how far my personal beliefs should shape our legal system (as much as I can actually influence that). There are some "slam dunk" examples like first degree murder, but there are numerous other examples that aren't so easy to mandate (like what two consenting adults want to do with each other)

2) I get more cautious when it comes to children. The children are not "consenting" to anything. While my conscious is clear on this issue - gay/lesbian parenting is a false model for a family - I'm not sure I would say that I would make it downright illegal in our present society anymore than I can make bad heterosexual parenting illegal. However, I would personally discourage any would be gay/lesbian parents from adopting or artificially inseminating.

3) Now, to fellow Christians, I would pray that they examine their hearts and minds and ask - is this part of God's intention? Is more like the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of Pop Culture? Is this is a step forward to making earth more like God's realm - or a step back?
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 11:41 AM   #28
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
Didn't Russia just ban same sex couples from adopting? Of course they also banned Americans from adopting Russian kids so I think it's less about them hating gays than Russia just really fucking hates orphans.


Or Russians hating Americans?
__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 11:42 AM   #29
Refugee
 
The_Pac_Mule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,342
Local Time: 06:45 AM
Quote:
3) Now, to fellow Christians, I would pray that they examine their hearts and minds and ask - is this part of God's intention? Is more like the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of Pop Culture? Is this is a step forward to making earth more like God's realm - or a step back?
Unfortunately we don't live in the kingdom of Heaven, we live on earth which due to being a generally shitty place has left millions of children homeless and family-less. They need somewhere to go, anywhere. Even if it's to Mr. And Mrs. Lohan, or Mr. And Mr. Smith. Because no matter how less than ideal it is, its better than no parents, no support, and no constant role models. Even if you feel that homosexuality is wrong, and I'll admit as a Christian I don't know exactly what the answer is regarding it, I cannot picture a gay couple standing before God and Him telling them that their raising of children was wrong, regardless of whether their homosexuality is a sin or not. I can only picture Him praising them for giving a child a home and family who wouldn't have otherwise had one.

For this same reason I feel uncomfortable about artificial insemination/surrogates/etc. I'm not saying I think they should be illegal, but I just think that like I said there's already so many children that need homes it seems like a selfish thing to do.
__________________
The_Pac_Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 11:43 AM   #30
Galeonbroad
 
Galeongirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Schoo Fishtank
Posts: 70,773
Local Time: 12:45 PM
Do you reckon it was part of God's intention that some people are excluded from things that are normal to others?

God is love, and he loves everyone equally. But some more equal than others?
__________________

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceRyan View Post
And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
Galeongirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com