INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
An idea nourished by our altruism and defended around the world with our military; not spread by propaganda or force but by a shining light on a hill.
Russian Tanks Enter South Ossetia
- Thread starter Pearl
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
^ and this justifies everything we do?
That sounds exactly like the mindless crap we were reciting back in 1st grade before they inducted us all into the Communist party.
It sounded stupid to me then, and it sounds equally as stupid to me today. Maybe even stupider given that I'm not 6 anymore.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
if by "American exceptionalism" we mean a national identity not forged in blood in soil, but one of active self-creation, then i might agree with you.
but to think that every foreign policy action is altruistic and comes from a shining *city* on a hill, well that's North Korean talk.
Altruism? You can't possibly be serious. The US takes action when its own interests are threatened, or when there is a significant strategic gain to taking action. You would think that places like Rwanda and Darfur would be higher on the list than Iraq if we were in it for the altruistic goal of helping people live freer lives.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Well I'd hope so as a priority given that we don't have unlimited funds and manpower but we also have a stake and I think a duty in defending human liberty everywhere.
Are you choosing to ignore the American Red Cross, U.S. foreign aid, food shipments, personal donations and volunteerism, et cetera.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Oh yeah, which is really exceptional and unique to the US.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
this thread is beginning to feel like when you're an American in another country and you overhear another American tourist with a fanny pack and shorts and white socks speaking very LOUDLY and s-l-o-w-l-y to someone who doesn't speak English.
only marginally less embarrassing than being covered in maple leafs ... i kid! i kid!
on a more serious note, i'm not sure, INDY, that you're working under a historically accurate understanding of what is "american exceptionalism."
only marginally less embarrassing than being covered in maple leafs ... i kid! i kid!
on a more serious note, i'm not sure, INDY, that you're working under a historically accurate understanding of what is "american exceptionalism."
Vincent, please. The rest of us are all communists who don't care about our fellow man so we don't have things like the Canadian Red Cross.
I agree with your point. I would ask though isn't a crisis like Rwanda and Darfur on such a large scale a world reponsibility.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Maybe.
But one should be able to differentiate between the "mindless crap" that freed Europe, fosters individualism, self-reliance, entrepreneurship but also philanthropism, allows the most pluralistic population in history to live harmoniously and that patrols its borders to keep people from sneaking in...not out; from the "mindless crap" that murdered 60 million people in the twentieth century.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
INDY, the problem is that you think those things are somehow unique to the US. They are not. There are many countries like that - last I heard, Western Europe is philanthropic, I don't see Canada Customs patrolling our southern border to keep our citizens enslaved, I lived in the most multicultural city in the world according to UN data (it's Toronto, not New York, contrary to popular belief) where we had pluralism thrive, and so on.
I know you won't believe me, so I'm not sure why I try, but I've lived in 4 countries in my life. I don't count yours since I've only been here since this summer, it would however, make it 5. I will tell you that there is nothing that I have in NY that I didn't have in Toronto. Honest to God. I mean, there are obviously little things like way better shopping and extraordinary bagels, but hell you won't find a NY bagel in LA, nevermind the rest of the country, so this is more of a NYC type of thing.
I can make more money here, yes. But my rent is also substantially higher. Am I paying less tax? Actually, no, NYC has extraordinarily high income tax, higher than the highest marginal rate in Ontario. I have very good health insurance here supposedly, paid for entirely by my employer (I have no co-pay). Mercifully I haven't been sick so I haven't tested that out but to be honest if I got a major illness, I'd fly home ASAP in order not to tempt fate and some kind of huge thousand-dollar bill. I'm as free at home as I am here to eat what I want, not go to Church which I find really dull, go gay bar hopping with my dear gay friend from work, well except I can see my gay friend or my former lesbian roommate get married back home, can't do that here yet. I have the exact same channels on the TV here, except now I miss some of the Canadian ones; the internet is slower here but cell phone service is cheaper. The people are pretty much the same (as much as a New Yorker can ever be like anyone else out there). I have noticed absolutely no social difference here, although I do find other parts of the US to be quite different. Every day I pick one homeless man here and either give him $ or buy him lunch, depending on how much time I have. I did that back home as well, so it isn't that altruism is contagious here and I just caught it when I landed at LaGuardia.
I don't know what to tell you, but really, maybe you need to go live abroad for a while or something. A lot of your posts on this subject sound either naive or flat out insulting.
I know you won't believe me, so I'm not sure why I try, but I've lived in 4 countries in my life. I don't count yours since I've only been here since this summer, it would however, make it 5. I will tell you that there is nothing that I have in NY that I didn't have in Toronto. Honest to God. I mean, there are obviously little things like way better shopping and extraordinary bagels, but hell you won't find a NY bagel in LA, nevermind the rest of the country, so this is more of a NYC type of thing.
I can make more money here, yes. But my rent is also substantially higher. Am I paying less tax? Actually, no, NYC has extraordinarily high income tax, higher than the highest marginal rate in Ontario. I have very good health insurance here supposedly, paid for entirely by my employer (I have no co-pay). Mercifully I haven't been sick so I haven't tested that out but to be honest if I got a major illness, I'd fly home ASAP in order not to tempt fate and some kind of huge thousand-dollar bill. I'm as free at home as I am here to eat what I want, not go to Church which I find really dull, go gay bar hopping with my dear gay friend from work, well except I can see my gay friend or my former lesbian roommate get married back home, can't do that here yet. I have the exact same channels on the TV here, except now I miss some of the Canadian ones; the internet is slower here but cell phone service is cheaper. The people are pretty much the same (as much as a New Yorker can ever be like anyone else out there). I have noticed absolutely no social difference here, although I do find other parts of the US to be quite different. Every day I pick one homeless man here and either give him $ or buy him lunch, depending on how much time I have. I did that back home as well, so it isn't that altruism is contagious here and I just caught it when I landed at LaGuardia.
I don't know what to tell you, but really, maybe you need to go live abroad for a while or something. A lot of your posts on this subject sound either naive or flat out insulting.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Pas de problème parce que je parle un peu français.
I realize that there are many definitions for American exceptionalism including derogatory ones now favored by the anti-American left.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
I've always been quite suspect of stories I heard from exchange students that have spent a year in the US in high school that told me they were asked questions like "Do you have electricity/running water/cars/internet/you name it?" or even "Is Hitler still your President?" (Actually no, he was Chancellor before he became Dictator) and so on.
Some of Indy's posts in a way remind me of that and make me less suspect, so I'm sure he knows more about Europe than those asking those questions.
Though we really can be and are thankful to the US for liberating us from the Nazis and protect us against the Soviets we shouldn't deny that there was as much self-interest as there was a sense of altruism in doing so. It's not denigrading in any way what happened, and it's in no way a hatred or anti-Americanism to inject colour into how you see things.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
But don't you see, in one post you pride the great achievements of US society and in the next you show the same dogmatic black & white authoritarian view on the other political side you seem to be blaming the rest of the world of doing.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I realize that we have posters from many countries and it is not my intent to insult anyone. I love my country and I'm not ashamed of it but would never argue with anyone here that said the same of their country.
But it's American exceptionalism because we do those things exceptionally well. Americans didn't invent charity but there is no more charitable nation. We didn't invent democracy, the rule of law, private property or human rights but what kind of governments existed in Canada, Australia, England, France and Germany prior to the American Revolution?
The spread of human liberty doesn't challenge American exceptionalism it sustains it.
I've read the neoconservative philosophy that created this argument, so I feel I understand both sides of the equation here.
Part of the problem, I think, is that this is too reminiscent of late 19th century/early 20th century jingoism. Plus, to make this argument in a thread arguing against Russian nationalism, it can be argued that Russia, most certainly, believes everything you've written, but about itself, rather than the U.S. And, obviously, because of this wariness, an argument like this is not going to be well-received.
The U.S. is, historically, great when it comes to economic freedoms and a few decades behind when it comes to social freedoms, in comparison to other industrialized nations, but it usually catches up eventually. One thing that is hard to ignore, though, is the dual expectations that are placed on the U.S. when it comes to foreign policy. On one hand, when they act, the U.S. is told to go away; on the other, when they don't, people wonder why the U.S. isn't more involved.
The U.S. certainly is an idea, but, more or less, those ideas were all borrowed from the Enlightenment-era philosophy of John Locke, and, to a lesser, but also important extent, Jean-Jacques Rousseau (as proffered by a book written by a neocon about this very subject). Nonetheless, we were the first nation to adopt this philosophy to such a great extent, and we are still the nation, for better or for worse, that free nations still look to for leadership in this arena.
It's a pity that we haven't done a better job with this responsibility over the last century.
FYI, I like this verse quite a bit.
You have a funny definition of altruism, then.
Regarding the food aid etc - that's a drastically lower scale of help than what we "offered" Iraq.
Indeed it is. But if we are the most altruistic and freedom-defending country out there like Indy claims, then you would think we'd be first in line and doing our best to get everyone else involved in crises like that.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I think it's fair to ask why Iraq and not Darfur just as it was fair to ask why Kosovo and not Rwanda in the 90's.
But what "interests are threatened" or what "significant strategic gain" does the United States foresee as we set a goal of sending over 10 billion dollars worth of antiretroviral drugs to Africa or our military personal and equipment along with 2 ex-presidents to the tsunami ravaged areas of Indonesia and Thailand?
Maybe we're just a good nation. Maybe we're exceptionally blessed which makes it our duty to be good. That's what I think anyway. Didn't realize saying it would cause
To answer part of your question, Africa has been up for grabs over the last few years, as the world's powers need the natural resources that Africa has to offer. As such, the U.S., Russia, China, and India have been very busy trying to get countries on their side. For instance, China has Zimbabwe, which needs no explanation as a country with a terrible government, but the U.S. has Equatorial Guinea, which also happens to be run by a dictator. Frankly, it's very hard to see any gestures in Africa over the last few years as being motivated by altruism, because of this.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Last couple of years? In the 20th century alone England, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal and Belgium all had colonies in Africa.
What about Christian missionaries? What no good have they been up to these past 150 years or so? I appreciate your political reading of current day Africa but can't a nation act purely for humanitarian reasons? Disaster aid? Food? Medicine? Debt relief?
I wonder what kind of spoils Bono has promised George Bush and other G-8 leaders in the past 15 years?
Bono has said on numerous occasions that he believes (and has argued to Bush and other G8 leaders) that tackling extreme poverty in Africa is a matter of national security, as it is those areas where there are no opportunities, where there is no freedom and/or stable way of life that extremism (islamic or otherwise) finds fertile ground. Something along the lines "making friends with them now is far easier than battling them as enemies later."
Bono is not so naive as to believe that nations will take action out of altruism alone. You have to be able to frame it in a way (again) where the nations have something to gain from taking action. Which pretty much takes altruism out of the equation.
That's as much history as the Soviet Union and the Boxer Rebellion. This recent race to ally with African nations has everything to do with the increasing perceived scarcity of oil and other natural resources during this past decade. Before that, nobody could care less about Africa.
Economic and political theory would argue that true altruism is rare, and Ayn Rand, of course, created an entire political philosophy (or "pseudo-philosophy," as Allan Bloom put it) around the idea that all charity is selfish, and is more of an act to make the donor feel good about themselves, instead of pure, selfless charity. There is past precedent around this idea, and it formed a cornerstone of the Protestant Reformation, as Martin Luther rejected "good works" for salvation, undoubtedly motivated by all those "good works" performed by people, so they could attain indulgences so they could feel free to do even more bad deeds later.
And Christian missionaries certainly aren't there for the charity, as much as the conversion, which is about themselves.
