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Old 08-11-2008, 12:23 PM   #16
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Thank you everyone, for the better understanding of a very tense situation. I have been watching this on the BBC News and also, American broadcast news programs. I hope there is peaceful resolution.
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:43 PM   #17
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Being 16 I don't know if my opinion matters but I am going to say it anyway. I totally back Georgia on this matter. Russia has no right to invade because some of it's citizens are declaring themselves independent from Georgia. That would be like a bunch of Americans living in the Bahamas and declaring themselves free from the Bahamas and a part of the US then the US attacking the Bahamas for attacking the rebels, complete and udder insanity. Maybe Russia will one day realize that they are no better then some school yard bully and should be treated as if.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:40 PM   #18
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.

Quote:
Mr. Bush said
"Russia's invasion of a sovereign neighbor and threats to its elected democratic government are unacceptable conduct in the 21st Century."

Quote:
Putin responded,
"I was dreamin' when I wrote this
Forgive me if it goes astray

But when I woke up this mornin'
Coulda sworn it was judgment day

The sky was all purple
There were people runnin' everywhere

Tryin' 2 run from the destruction
U know I didn't even care
So tonight we gonna, we gonna (Tonight I'm gonna party like it's 1999)

Alright, it's 1999
.
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:24 PM   #19
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Maybe Russia will one day realize that they are no better then some school yard bully and should be treated as if.

I agree 100%. So did this guy...

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Old 08-11-2008, 09:26 PM   #20
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You do realize that the rest of the world sees you guys pretty much the same way, right?
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:48 PM   #21
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You do realize that the rest of the world sees you guys pretty much the same way, right?
Heck, much of the crowd headed to Denver in 2 weeks sees America that way. Which is sad.
We ain't perfect but civilization has never known a greater defender or benefactor of liberty than the United States and only a fool or ideologue would think otherwise.
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:54 PM   #22
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Putin, Lavrov and Churkin have certainly been savoring every pointedly dropped analogy to Kosovo and Iraq these last couple days.
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:05 PM   #23
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Russia seems determined to squash the Georgian government- odious and authoritarian as they are, it makes sense given the very real possibility that Georgia was too aggressive that Putin Medvedev decided to end this issue in one swift stroke.

And we see the hysterics already publishing opinion columns about Munich and appeasement. Hopefully their inane analysis is exposed for the warmongering it is- I don't want US troops dying in the Caucasus Mountains.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:30 AM   #24
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Talking Points Memo | Russia opens new front, drives deeper into Georgia

Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.

The escalating warfare brought sharp words from President Bush, who pressed Moscow to accept an immediate cease-fire and pull its troops out to avert a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in the former Soviet republic.

Russian forces for the first time moved well outside the two restive, pro-Russian provinces claimed by Georgia that lie at the heart of the dispute. An Associated Press reporter saw Russian troops in control of government buildings in this town just miles from the frontier and Russian troops were reported in nearby Senaki.

Georgia's president said his country had been sliced in half with the capture of a critical highway crossroads near the central city of Gori, and Russian warplanes launched new air raids across the country.

The Russian Defense Ministry, through news agencies, denied it had captured Gori and also denied any intentions to advance on the Georgian capital of Tbilisi.

The western assault expanded the days-old war beyond the central breakaway region of South Ossetia, where a crackdown by Georgia last week drew a military response from Russia.

While most Georgian forces were still busy fighting there, Russian troops opened the western attack by invading from a second separatist province, Abkhazia, that occupies Georgia's coastal northwest arm.

Russian forces moved into Senaki, 20 miles inland from the Black Sea, and seized police stations in Zugdidi, just outside the southern fringe of Abkhazia. Abkhazian allies took control of the nearby village of Kurga, according to witnesses and Georgian officials.

U.N. officials B. Lynn Pascoe and Edmond Mulet in New York, speaking at an emergency Security Council meeting asked for by Georgia, also confirmed that Russian troops have driven well beyond South Ossetia and Abkhazia, U.N. diplomats said on condition of anonymity because it was a closed session. They said Russian airborne troops were not meeting any resistance while taking control of Georgia's Senaki army base.

"A full military invasion of Georgia is going on," Georgian Ambassador Irakli Alasania told reporters later. "Now I think Security Council has to act."

The Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, told CNN late Monday that Russian forces were cleansing Abkhazia of ethnic Georgians.

"I directly accuse Russia of ethnic cleansing," he said. At the U.N. on Friday, each side accused the other of ethnic cleansing.

By late Monday, Russian news agencies, citing the Defense Ministry, said troops had left Senaki "after liquidating the danger," but did not give details.

The new assault came despite a claim earlier in the day by a top Russian general that Russia had no plans to enter undisputed Georgian territory.

Saakashvili earlier told a national security meeting Russia had also taken central Gori, which its on Georgia's only east-west highway, cutting off the eastern half of the nation from the western Black Sea coast.

But the news agency Interfax cited a Russian Defense Ministry official as denying Gori was captured. Attempts to reach Gori residents by telephone late Monday did not go through.

Fighting also raged Monday around Tskhinvali, the capital of the separatist province of South Ossetia.

Even as Saakashvili signed a cease-fire pledge Monday with European mediators, Russia flexed its military muscle and appeared determined to subdue the small U.S. ally, which has been pressing for NATO membership.

"The bombs that are falling on us, they have an inscription on them: This is for NATO. This is for the U.S.," Saakashvili told CNN.

Russia's massive and multi-pronged offensive has drawn wide criticism from the West, but Russia has rejected calls for a cease-fire and said it was acted to protect its citizens. Most residents of the separatist regions have Russian passports.

In Zugdidi, an AP reporter saw five or six Russian soldiers posted outside an Interior Ministry building. Several tanks and other armored vehicles were moving through the town but the streets were nearly deserted. Shops, restaurants and banks were shut down.

In the city of Gori, an AP reporter heard artillery fire and Georgian soldiers warned locals to get out because Russian tanks were approaching. Hundreds of terrified residents fled toward Tbilisi, many trying to flag down passing cars.

An AP film crew saw Georgian tanks and military vehicles speeding along the road from Gori to Tbilisi. Firing began and people ran for cover. Cars could be seen in flames along the side of the road.

Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.

Both provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990, and both have close ties with Moscow.

When Georgia began its offensive to regain control over South Ossetia, the Russian response was swift and overpowering — thousands of troops and tanks poured in.

Georgia had pledged a cease-fire, but it rang hollow Monday. An AP reporter saw a small group of Georgian fighters open fire on a column of Russian and Ossetian military vehicles outside Tskhinvali, triggering a 30-minute battle. The Russians later said all the Georgians were killed.
Ugh. At this point if I were the Georgian leader I'd cut my losses and accept the Russians' ceasefire agreement. The US clearly isn't going to back them up, and the Russians seem dead set on occupying the entire country. My last post looks a little silly now.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:51 AM   #25
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Operations against Georgia have ended, according to Medvedev.
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Old 08-12-2008, 06:04 AM   #26
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BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia 'ends Georgia operation'

Well...I shouldn't try predicting the Russian military in the future. It doesn't seem long before South Ossetia secedes, with whatever's left of the Georgian miltary probably helpless to stop it.
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Old 08-12-2008, 01:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
civilization has never known a greater defender or benefactor of liberty than the United States and only a fool or ideologue would think otherwise.
You're kidding right?

I guess I'm a fool/ideologue, then
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Old 08-12-2008, 02:30 PM   #28
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You're kidding right?

I guess I'm a fool/ideologue, then

American exceptionalism -- poking a pin in the Marxist balloon since 1848.
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Old 08-12-2008, 02:32 PM   #29
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I think the idea of any kind of exceptionalism (remember Solzhenitsyn preached Russian exceptionalism) is too stupid for words.
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Old 08-12-2008, 03:00 PM   #30
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yeah, i really can't help but think that Cheney and Rumsfeld are somewhat admiring Putin.

they would certainly have done the same thing. they convinced Bush that it is perfectly acceptable -- gosh, almost moral -- to use military force in the pursuit of national interest. this is positively 19th century thinking, and it guided the white house up until Rumsfeld's resignation in 2006.

historically, no, i don't think there's much of a comparison between American and Russian foreign policy. i do think that one is far more defensible than the other.

but this particular adventure?

it's not like Bush has any authority to rally the world around what are rather obvious Russian excesses. the Geneva Convention doesn't matter anymore, right? it doesn't matter if one goes into war under false pretenses, right? everyone now has a carte blanche to defend their own national interests, right?

i think everyone is absolutely right to condemn what Russia is doing.

too bad it means so much less now than it would have in 1999.
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