Roadmap to HELL - One man caught on a barbed wire fence ....

[maycocksean]

Again, the British, League of Nations did not search the globe and decide on spot to put Israel. The desire to form Israel did not come from the League of Nations, or the British, but Jews living in Israel/Palestine upon the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. How can it be ok for citizens living in Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey to form those state, but its NOT ok for Jews living in Israel/Palestine to form a state of their own called Israel?

Which group of people shoud have been allowed to form their own state in Palestine? The Jews or the Arabs?

 

[Strongbow]

Which group of people shoud have been allowed to form their own state in Palestine? The Jews or the Arabs?

Both! Over 70% of the land west of the Jordan river back then was uninhabited. You could of had a Jewish state, an Arab State, a Christian state, etc. This is the conclusion of the United Nations in 1947 as well. Its what will happen if the Palestinians ever decide to agree to a peace deal.

 

[Strongbow]

The continual positioning that Israel offers peace and Arabs reject it always smells like pure propoganda.

No, its actually a fact when you look at the history. Israel has never been against the formation of a Palestinian state. They accepted the United Nations Peace Plan in 1947. The Palestinians and Arabs rejected it and then brutally started the 1948 war. Ever since 1948, the Palestinians and Arabs have refused to reconize Israel's right to exist, and have consistently launched terrorist attacks to murder Jews as well as starting wars designed to wipe Israel from the map.

All Israel has tried to do is survive in a sea of people that have for decades tried to destroy them.

The Palestinians were offered a deal which gave them over 90% of what they wanted in 2000, Bill Clintons peace plan, but they rejected it. Where is the non-violent Palestinian movement? Why does the vast majority of Palestinian attempts to get a state involve only violence, war, and terrorism? Why do so many Arab countries refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist?

The history clearly shows which side has been the most opposed to a peaceful two state solution.

Does it ever occur to anyone that the terms of the "offer" (then or more recently) may not have been legitimate or balanced?

Well, what do you find illegitimate or unbalanced about the United Nations Partition plan of 1947? What do you find illegitimate or unbalanced about BILL CLINTON's peace plan in 2000?

That the conditions of peace and an "independent" state of Palestine are on the unlilateral terms of Israel and in effect may actually require complete submission and dependence from Palestinians?

How could the United Nations peace plan of 1947 be considered the unilateral terms of Israel?

How could Bill Clintons peace plan of 2000 be considered the unilateral terms of Israel?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Again, the British, League of Nations did not search the globe and decide on spot to put Israel. The desire to form Israel did not come from the League of Nations, or the British, but Jews living in Israel/Palestine upon the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. How can it be ok for citizens living in Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey to form those state, but its NOT ok for Jews living in Israel/Palestine to form a state of their own called Israel?

And once again, I never said they couldn't. I never said it wasn't okay, nor did anyone else. They can put one there all they wish, I really don't care. All I said was that it's odd. I didn't say whether it was good or bad, smart or dumb, just odd, given the population they'd be surrounded by. But if they were willing to take the risks involved with creating a state there, then hey, go for it.

And while the idea of a Jewish state, Arab state, and Christian state all cohabiting sounds absolutely lovely and really, in the utopian worldview, shouldn't be a problem, in the real world view...unfortunately, there is going to be severe conflict as a result. I fully agree the three religions should coexist and be allowed to all be within the same area-more education and exposure to others' faiths, thus leading to more understanding and less ignorance and intolerance. There's no reason they shouldn't all be able to share the landspace and go about their respective business together. Sadly, not everyone in this world shares my idealistic worldview, which sucks .

AliEnvy, nice post .

Angela

 

[Irvine511]

a two-state solution would be a whole lot easier if the present Israeli government were to cease illegal settlement activity.

 

[deep]

the settlements on Wast Bank territories with the resettlement of Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Africans, etc that claim to be Jewish.
and keep in mind that these immigrants are given cheap (or free? ) housing and given money to relocate there.


Well, these settlements on Palestinian land are far worse than any random rocket fired blindly out of Gaza,
these settlements are the greatest terror being committed in the area right now.

 

[Strongbow]

a two-state solution would be a whole lot easier if the present Israeli government were to cease illegal settlement activity.

I agree.

 

[Strongbow]

the settlements on Wast Bank territories with the resettlement of Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Africans, etc that claim to be Jewish.
and keep in mind that these immigrants are given cheap (or free? ) housing and given money to relocate there.


Well, these settlements on Palestinian land are far worse than any random rocket fired blindly out of Gaza,
these settlements are the greatest terror being committed in the area right now.

I agree its a big problem, and is definitely not in Israel's interest, but it is not the same thing as murder.

 

[deep]

I agree.

I am trying to remember your opinion about what should be done with Jerusalem.

That seems to be a huge stumbling block for a final agreement.

 

[deep]

I agree its a big problem, and is definitely not in Israel's interest, but it is not the same thing as murder.

really?

What would Israel do if Lebanon came into Israel proper and built a partican wall and loaded up that seized territory with settlements and tens? of thousands new settlers?

 

[Strongbow]

And once again, I never said they couldn't. I never said it wasn't okay, nor did anyone else. They can put one there all they wish, I really don't care. All I said was that it's odd. I didn't say whether it was good or bad, smart or dumb, just odd, given the population they'd be surrounded by. But if they were willing to take the risks involved with creating a state there, then hey, go for it.



Angela

Well, why would that be odd or risky? Remember, there was little if any fighting among these groups while the Ottoman Empire owned the land. In addition, no matter where Jews live on this earth, they are always surrounded by populations that are NOT Jewish. Most importantly, the Jews who chose to form a state in Israel/Palestine after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, were doing so in area, that many of them had lived all their lives. In addition, most of the towns that they lived in were actually majority Jewish.

So, when you really think about it, it would have been ODD if they did not form a state there.

And while the idea of a Jewish state, Arab state, and Christian state all cohabiting sounds absolutely lovely and really, in the utopian worldview, shouldn't be a problem, in the real world view...unfortunately, there is going to be severe conflict as a result. I fully agree the three religions should coexist and be allowed to all be within the same area-more education and exposure to others' faiths, thus leading to more understanding and less ignorance and intolerance. There's no reason they shouldn't all be able to share the landspace and go about their respective business together. Sadly, not everyone in this world shares my idealistic worldview, which sucks

Again, they were able to get along while the Ottoman Empire ruled the land, why does there have to be any sort of conflict when they form individual states on land that they already privately own? This was not some utopia were talking about, but the real world. The Ottoman Empire ruled the area for 400 years. The fact that there are Jews, Christians and Muslims living in the area already, and had been there for centuries, is simply a fact. If they can get along living under one state, the Ottoman Empire, there should be no problem getting along when they are seperated in multiple independent states.

 

[Strongbow]

I am trying to remember your opinion about what should be done with Jerusalem.

That seems to be a huge stumbling block for a final agreement.

Well, I think there should be a deal where Israel gets East Jerusalem but must give up all other settlements on the West Bank, or they get to keep these settlements on the West Bank, but must give the Palestinians all of East Jerusalem. Or perhaps a combination of both. I think the huge benefits of a peaceful resolution by giving up much of East Jerusalem and much of the West Bank settlements outweigh the cost of withdrawing from them.

There is certainly no security advantage or security need for Israel to have East Jerusalem.

 

[Strongbow]

really?

What would Israel do if Lebanon came into Israel proper and built a partican wall and loaded up that seized territory with settlements and tens? of thousands new settlers?

Well, first, Lebanon would be launching an unprovoked invasion of an internationally recognized independent state, Israel. As of today, there is no independent Palestinian State and there will not be one until a peace deal is signed where Israel's right to exist is recognized.

The reason that the West Bank and Gaza are occupied by Israel is because of the 1967 war and subsequent wars and attacks on Israel by Arab countries and Palestinians. The West Bank and Gaza would not be occupied today by Israel if the Arab's and Palestinians had not attempted to overrun Israel decades ago.

The Palestinians can finally get an independent state as well as the removal of Jewish settlements when they agree to a peace deal. Once Egypt agreed to a peace deal with Israel, Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai Peninsula and removed Jewish settlers from the Sinai peninsula.

Israel has to make sure that any deal it agrees to does not threaten its security and involves the recognition of Israel's right to exist within its current borders.

I don't agree with Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but its not murder and as we saw with Israel's peace deal with Egypt in 1979, any settlement can be removed.

 

[Bluer White]

I wasn't trying to imply it should be anywhere else. I honestly don't know where else would be a good place to put Israel, and don't really care, 'cause as Irvine said, Israel's there, it's always going to be there, and that's that, and hooray for that, I'm certainly no advocate of suddenly up and moving that country now after all this time. I was simply agreeing that it is an odd spot for them to plant a country, that's all I meant. If they want to put Israel there, fine, go for it. It's just strange, the fact that people on both sides are so surprised at the reaction that came from that decision. Perhaps they weren't expecting it to get as violent and lengthy as it became, though, I dunno.

Angela

I hear ya

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Well, why would that be odd or risky? Remember, there was little if any fighting among these groups while the Ottoman Empire owned the land. In addition, no matter where Jews live on this earth, they are always surrounded by populations that are NOT Jewish. Most importantly, the Jews who chose to form a state in Israel/Palestine after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, were doing so in area, that many of them had lived all their lives. In addition, most of the towns that they lived in were actually majority Jewish.

So, when you really think about it, it would have been ODD if they did not form a state there.

*Sigh* It's odd and risky given the fact that the people who lived there already were protective of their land and because of the whole "holy land" deal. It may make sense to put a country there for those sorts of reasons, but they had to realize that there would be religious skirmishes and land skirmishes from people that were living in that area already, thus there was something of a risk. Whether or not this sort of thing would've happened had Israel been planted anywhere else, I don't know. Probably, I'm sure. But other areas of the world aren't laying claim to any "holy land". That area of the world is. Therefore, whatever happens there is likely to be a little bit more tense.

Again, they were able to get along while the Ottoman Empire ruled the land, why does there have to be any sort of conflict when they form individual states on land that they already privately own?

I dunno, because throughout history all three religions have had their battles, perhaps? If there was peace during that time, then they were lucky, because history has shown that the three major religions have been fighting for a very, very long time.

And so they separate into individual states. So what? People are still greedy, sometimes their own land isn't enough after a while and they want more, and you can have your own private state and still have a beef with someone over religious stuff or ethnic stuff or whatever else it is they want to argue about.

This was not some utopia were talking about, but the real world. The Ottoman Empire ruled the area for 400 years. The fact that there are Jews, Christians and Muslims living in the area already, and had been there for centuries, is simply a fact. If they can get along living under one state, the Ottoman Empire, there should be no problem getting along when they are seperated in multiple independent states.

I know it's a fact that they've all lived in the same area for eons. I'm not disagreeing on that, I never said they never did live in the same area. And you're right, there shouldn't be any problem whether they're separated or not-that's what I meant when I mentioned the utopian worldview vs. the real world view. But unfortunately, knowing how all three religions' extremists tend to operate nowadays, to expect there will not be any fighting is incredibly naive. I hope we can work with all three religions and get them to come together and respect each other and live in peace. I really do. And I want people to keep pushing that. But in the meantime, expect the fighting to continue.

Angela

 

[Pearl]

a two-state solution would be a whole lot easier if the present Israeli government were to cease illegal settlement activity.

Exactly.

 

[Strongbow]

*Sigh* It's odd and risky given the fact that the people who lived there already were protective of their land and because of the whole "holy land" deal. It may make sense to put a country there for those sorts of reasons, but they had to realize that there would be religious skirmishes and land skirmishes from people that were living in that area already, thus there was something of a risk. Whether or not this sort of thing would've happened had Israel been planted anywhere else, I don't know. Probably, I'm sure. But other areas of the world aren't laying claim to any "holy land". That area of the world is. Therefore, whatever happens there is likely to be a little bit more tense.


Angela

But the people who "already live there and are protective of their land INCLUDE Jews! Why would it be less risky and less odd to exclude the Jews from having their own state on land they already privately own?

With the end of the Ottoman Empire the plan that is most logical, fair, and gives the best chance for peace is a plan that allows all of the citizens of the former Ottoman Empire to form independent states. To exclude one or more groups from being able to do that is actually the plan that is both ODD and high risk in terms of starting a conflict. How would blocking the Jews and other citizens of the former Ottoman Empire, from forming a state on land they already privately own, be logical or less risky?

I dunno, because throughout history all three religions have had their battles, perhaps? If there was peace during that time, then they were lucky, because history has shown that the three major religions have been fighting for a very, very long time.

And so they separate into individual states. So what? People are still greedy, sometimes their own land isn't enough after a while and they want more, and you can have your own private state and still have a beef with someone over religious stuff or ethnic stuff or whatever else it is they want to argue about.

Then I think you should be able to see that simply preventing the Jews from forming a state in Israel/Palestine is not going to prevent fighting, if anything, it would make it more likely. To deny one group of people their fair right to form a state on land they own, but give all the other groups those rights is certainly an action that would build deep resentment and create a conflict.

 

[the iron horse]

If the Palestinians are indeed a myth, then the real question becomes "Why?" Why invent a fictitious people?

The answer is that the myth of the Palestinian People serves as the justification for Arab occupation of the Land of Israel. While the Arabs already possess 21 sovereign countries of their own (more than any other single people on earth) and control a land mass 800 times the size of the Land of Israel, this is apparently not enough for them.

They therefore feel the need to rob the Jews of their one and only country, one of the smallest on the planet.

Unfortunately, many people ignorant of the history of the region, including much of the world media, are only too willing to help.


The Myth Of The Palestinian People

 

[A_Wanderer]

Your source is the most virulent hate site that I've seen for a while

Masada2000 is a California-based Kahanist website created and maintained by people from the United States, Israel, Brazil, and Switzerland. Before 2001 the site was called Zion2000.

The site is named after the Masada fortress in Israel, where, during Jewish Revolt against the Roman Empire, a group known as the Sicarii fought the Romans and committed mass suicide rather than surrender. According to its founders, it was established to counter "professional and deadly serious" websites with anti-Israel views. They also have said that the site will "expose Jews who genuinely despise Israel and the Jewishness it represents" and "'progressive' Jews who are into 'social justice' causes for everyone EXCEPT Israel's Jewish population."

The site refers to Arab citizens of Israel and Palestinians as "cancer" and endorses their expulsion from Israel and the Occupied Territories.

Look at Masada 2000: History & Geography of Israel & Palestine. Also... Zionism, Refugees, PLO, Terrorism, Arab-Israeli Conflict

You're racing for the bottom by citing it.

 

[BVS]

If the Palestinians are indeed a myth, then the real question becomes "Why?" Why invent a fictitious people?

The answer is that the myth of the Palestinian People serves as the justification for Arab occupation of the Land of Israel. While the Arabs already possess 21 sovereign countries of their own (more than any other single people on earth) and control a land mass 800 times the size of the Land of Israel, this is apparently not enough for them.

They therefore feel the need to rob the Jews of their one and only country, one of the smallest on the planet.

Unfortunately, many people ignorant of the history of the region, including much of the world media, are only too willing to help.


The Myth Of The Palestinian People

Do you buy into these horribly biased shitty websites due to your dislike of the Muslim religion?

 

[the iron horse]

Do you buy into these horribly biased shitty websites due to your dislike of the Muslim religion?

Please post a quote by me where I have bashed Islam or any religion.

I'm just trying to find the truth and reading history.


What do you buy into?

 

[A_Wanderer]

You find truth by reading racist drivel?

You're not much different than a 9/11 "truther" or a holocaust revisionist when you use those sources.

 

[the iron horse]

You find truth by reading racist drivel?

You're not much different than a 9/11 "truther" or a holocaust revisionist when you use those sources.

Your opinion, which is fine. I'm a Libertarian. Express yourself.

But please post any historical facts that dispute what I posted.

 

[BVS]

Please post a quote by me where I have bashed Islam or any religion.

You just don't respect any other religion.

I'm just trying to find the truth and reading history.

This shit isn't history.

 

[the iron horse]

You just don't respect any other religion.




This shit isn't history.

Again, you did not answer the questions.

I'm not here for a fight or to bash anyone.

I only hope that all of us try to search and find the truth.

Take care

 

[A_Wanderer]

Your opinion, which is fine. I'm a Libertarian. Express yourself.

But please post any historical facts that dispute what I posted.

I'm not going to waste my time refuting articles on websites that promote ethnic cleansing.

Israel doesn't have any right to build those settlements, allowing settlers to flood the area prevents any peace deal, and the religious mindset that drives the horrid affair gets people butchered.

 

[the iron horse]

I'm not going to waste my time refuting articles on websites that promote ethnic cleansing.

Why not spend some time trying to find out the truth?


And please post where the link I posted suggested ethic cleansing.

 

[A_Wanderer]

PEACE IS IMPOSSIBLE!
There's No More "Middle" in the Middle East

From the moment the Jewish People re-established sovereignty in their ancient homeland, they sought genuine peace with all of their neighbors. Unfortunately, their neighbors did not wish to share a peaceful existence with them. They, like Bin Ladin today, felt that they had a religious obligation to destroy the non-Arab/Muslim Jewish State (and, for that matter, ALL non-Arab/Moslem governments in the world). The Arab campaign against Israel is rooted not in any negotiable grievances but in a basic opposition to the very existence of Jewish sovereignty in what they perceive as THEIR Middle East! The ultimate intent of the Arabs is to separate out a Jewish history from "Palestine"... and then to separate Israel from the face of the Earth.

You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic. You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches!

History & Geography of Israel & Palestine. Also... Zionism, Refugees, PLO, Terrorism, Arab-Israeli Conflict

The article you posted denied the existence of any Palestinian Arab people - that is pure is propaganda for a one state solution. Arabs lived on the land before the formation of Israel and the land in the West Bank and Gaza wasn't part of Israel when it was founded.

 

[the iron horse]

History & Geography of Israel & Palestine. Also... Zionism, Refugees, PLO, Terrorism, Arab-Israeli Conflict

The article you posted denied the existence of any Palestinian Arab people - that is pure is propaganda for a one state solution. Arabs lived on the land before the formation of Israel and the land in the West Bank and Gaza wasn't part of Israel when it was founded.[/QUO



Arabs lived on the land before the Jewish people?
Not true.

When did the Jews inhabit the land?

 

[BVS]

I only hope that all of us try to search and find the truth.

Take care

You've made the myth of a Palestinian State thread before, as soon as someone came in with information that didn't fall into your warped belief you ran away. So don't preach to us about finding the truth.

Anyone who fell for that crap website really isn't worth trying to discuss this topic because no one with any decency or any real knowledge would fall for that drivel.