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Old 06-01-2010, 08:53 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
Its his opinion and it is welcomed here, especially given the large amounts of anti-Israeli opinions that are so often expressed in here.
this kind of attitude, especially when it's allowed to permeate the leaders of the united states is why israel are allowed to get away with actual murder.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:03 PM   #47
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does it not make sense tou you, Achtung, that most of Israel's actions -- a wealthy, powerful army financed by the US and part of a powerful economy, especially when compared to the awfulness of the densely populated and absolutely destroyed Gaza -- are viewed as being entirely disproportionate to the actual situation on hand, as this incident seems to exemplify, and that makes it harder for everyone to make any sort of advancement towards a sustainable, peaceful, likely two-state solution? and it also makes it more difficult to rally world opinion against actual, present dangers like the Iranian regime? and that, once again, Israel has played directly into the Hamas playbook and further isolated itself from people who really do want Israel to succeed?

is shooting a gnat with a bazooka really the way to go?
Do you think Israel should attempt to prevent Iranian weapons that are used to attack Israel's cities from getting into Gaza? How would you prevent Iranian weapons from being smuggled into Gaza?
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:06 PM   #48
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You are benefiting enormously, and more than any other nation in the world from American taxpayer dollars.

If you don't want poking their noses into your business, then turn down the financial and military aid. I am sure that many Americans would be more than happy to use those dollars to build schools and bridges and roads in America instead.

But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Think again. Over the past decade, US spending in Iraq and Afghanistan has dwarfed US spending on Israel. In addition, the level of US aid to Egypt has been similar, although Egypt is a much larger country.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:14 PM   #49
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good luck getting sanctions on Iran now.
Considering that at least 3 this-time-we-really-mean-it Obama set nuclear deadlines have come and gone with no action but a middle finger from Iran and yawns from China & Russia -- and given the recent Iran-Brazil-Turkey deal done without the knowledge of the White House... I think the president is consigned to a nuclear Iran.

Israel, I'm afraid, is on its own.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:18 PM   #50
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Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid between 1948 and today. Without the $ and the political support of the U.S., Israel would be living a very different reality. This directly impacts U.S. taxpayers.
.
The middle east and the world would be living in a very different reality and likely not one that would be better. The Arabs attempted to wipe Israel off the map in 1948 but succeeded in defending itself with only a tiny fraction of the aid they get today. This was after Israel had accepted the UN peace plan which the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors rejected and then brutally invaded the country.

Since the 1973 War, while fighting has continued, there has not been any serious attempts to overrun Israel and US aid has played a major role in helping to deter and prevent such an event which would lead to far worse loss of life than anything seen in Israel/Palestine over the past couple of decades.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:24 PM   #51
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keep in mind
the Egyptian aid is for their cooperation with Israel.


what would Israel look like with out as much aid and consistent U N vetoes by the US?

one side would have you believe that Israel would be wiped off the face of the earth.

I don't buy that argument at all, with less aid and a more measured approach
there is a better chance that a real settlement agreement may have been reached by now.

And most likely more fair to the Palestinians, since Israel would not have been able to keep changing the 'so called' facts on the ground.
Well, look at what happened in 1948. Israel accepted a peace plan that would have given a Palestinian state half the land. Jeruselum would be a UN city and no one's capital. It was an excellant plan, far better than anything the Palestinians would get today, but they rejected it in 1948 and chose war. The Israeli's have been consistently ready to settle and make peace from day one, while the Palestinians have consistently rejected peace and chosen war to this day.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:30 PM   #52
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this kind of attitude, especially when it's allowed to permeate the leaders of the united states is why israel are allowed to get away with actual murder.
LOL, so your against an Israeli U2 fan from expressing their opinion on a U2 message board?


I generally agree with much of what Achtung-Bono has to say on the issue. Israel has a right to defend its self and yes defending ones country often involves the search for and interdiction of smuggled weapons.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:48 PM   #53
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I am on the record here of not being a fan of Israeli policies, but when I look at the people who are against the state of Israel (mainly, in my opinion, left wing types, some of questionable views. I am thinking largely of the European left here, a point raised by Irivine in the past, and I think he was onto something) I start to wonder what's going on here. The media portrayal of this incident is a bit suspect. Israel may well be in the wrong, but I resent being told by the European media that I must declare this an outrage because the media have decreed thusly. I have a hard time believing the Israeli military just went on aid relief boats and started killing civilians just for the hell of it.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:53 AM   #54
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Its her opinion and it is welcomed here, especially given the large amounts of anti-Israeli opinions that are so often expressed in here.
I didn’t mean for it to sound like I’m trying to shut her up, sorry if it came out that way. It was an emotional day for me.

Too many people here automatically support our government in this kind of cases. Now, I don’t think that this particular boat came in peace. They were equipped and ready for a violent resistance. They refused to pass out letters to Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier in their captivity (Hamas won’t allow visits from the Red Cross). Many times aid shipments were used to smuggle missiles & rockets fired later towards towns inside Israel. Not to mention the forgotten role of Egypt in the siege on Gaza – they are now in control of the border between Sinai and the Gaza strip.

Nevertheless, my government chose what seems to be the worst way to act on this. If they wanted to stop the ship, there were other ways. It didn’t have to be this brutal. My anger yesterday wasn’t just because what happened with the flotilla; it was related to everything that’s happening here since I was born and before. Yes, the Palestinians are not innocent. But neither are we. We deserve each other.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:12 AM   #55
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And, similar to the boxing in of pro/anti Iraq arguments back in the day (or still today sometimes), trying to polarise classification of opinions into either black or white when most would exist in grey, is wrong and goes nowhere. Anti-Iraq was not pro-Saddam. Anti Israeli action is not anti-Israel, or pro-Hamas, or pro or anti anything else except pro-middle ground, pro-solution, or whatever.

It’s perfectly possible, and reasonable, to agree with Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself – and to recognise how difficult and complex the challenges involved with that actually are - while also believing that they are going about it the wrong way.
So in regards to the blockade, yes, I think it is perfectly reasonable and totally understandable for Israel to want to control what is being transported into Gaza, by land or sea. But it is totally unreasonable for Israel to use this as an excuse to hold a boot on the throat of the Palestinian people in Gaza (a people that Netanyahu does not believe actually exist, in a land he believes is not actually theirs.)

Israel could easily – easily – have gone about this a different way. First of all, a pre-dawn commando raid so far beyond the actual blockade line, well into international waters, is a mistake of stupefying proportions. Either they truly do not give a fuck, or they’ve lost control of reasonable judgement. But from the beginning this was handled poorly. There was an aggressive (and so challenge setting) message from before the flotilla even set float. Image was everything, compromise necessary, and Egypt, Turkey and the US held the solution. I don’t understand how Israel could have fucked this up so brilliantly. The right way seems fairly simple to me?

Some suggest that Israel under the current leadership has lost all sense of perspective and proportion. That it’s totally ‘us’ versus ‘them’ (everyone else) and that everything must be a message of strength and force against ‘them’, and so, while obviously not wanting the result they got, the show of force was perhaps the only option on the table from the beginning. Forgetting the rights and wrongs of it for a moment, beyond that, just in terms of pure strategy, I can’t understand where they see any kind of future with that kind of thinking. They might as well just jump to what most of us would consider the worst-case-scenario end game right now and get it out of the way.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:12 AM   #56
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:51 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
Anti-Iraq was not pro-Saddam. Anti Israeli action is not anti-Israel, or pro-Hamas, or pro or anti anything else except pro-middle ground, pro-solution, or whatever.

It’s perfectly possible, and reasonable, to agree with Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself – and to recognise how difficult and complex the challenges involved with that actually are - while also believing that they are going about it the wrong way.


woah, woah, woah. careful. you're actually thinking here. some people find that very confusing, this whole "on one hand we see this and on the other hand we see that" namby-pamby, limp-wristed liberal "thinking" where countries aren't all good nor all bad.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:10 PM   #58
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IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by Israel - CNN.com

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Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:39 PM   #59
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Andrew McCarthy, author of "The Grand Jihad" is making the rounds on conservative talk radio today. He's claiming that Islam extermist and "the American left" are in cahoots and want the same thing for America.

What's happening yesterday and today is exactly what Obama and the left wanted.

And shock and awe the idiots like Rush and Laura Ingram are eating it up, hook, line, and sinker...
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:48 PM   #60
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Uh...yeah. Or not . Idiot.

Earnie Shavers, excellent post . That's the sort of thinking we could desperately use more of.

Angela
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