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Old 11-17-2012, 04:41 AM   #511
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A game of "but he STARTED it" seems te least productive way to address this particular conflict or the broader conflict.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:37 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by Irvine511
A game of "but he STARTED it" seems te least productive way to address this particular conflict or the broader conflict.
Yeah, absolutely. Right now, I feel sorry for the innocent people being hurt on both sides. And I can understand why both sides feel like firing rockets at the other side is a good response. I just disagree with it. But I'm comfortably thousands of miles away from the situation.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:50 AM   #513
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Just coming out of the shelter after another rocket fired at us, I still don't think it is such a great idea. This time the explosion sounded a bit stronger...
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:51 PM   #514
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Awful to see this all going on. Stay safe everyone here who is in harm's way.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:47 AM   #515
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Hamas wants end to blockade in cease-fire talks, official says - CNN.com

In other words:

Hamas:
"Dear Israel - we will stop firing rockets on your civillians if you lift the blockade that currently prevents us from getting the rockets to fire on your civillians..."

Yeah right....THAT'LL happen!

You know the story already....I've been telling it for the past 4 years since operation "lead cast" in 2008.
I live in a city that is currently being bombarded by missiles at least 5 times a day if not more. I sit in our living room with my mother and sister and I pray for two things: 1. that we remain safe, 2. that there will be NO cease-fire. I don't care how long I have to endure air-raid sirens and missiles falling 10 minutes from my house - as long as our army can get the job done.

Besides my city, there have been people living in Sderot and the towns around Gaza that have endured constant shelling for twelve years now.....TWELVE YEARS......think about that.... If Mexico lobbed missiles at New York City day after day, do you think the U.S. would wait for 12 years and just take it?.....I don't think the U.S, would wait 12 SECONDS let alone 12 years.

A cease fire means only one thing - Hamas taking a breather, restocking their missile supply with the help of their new best friend Muhammed Morsi of Egypt, who will no doubt be more than happy to open the Rafah crossing and turn a blind eye to the smuggling tunnels.

Uh uh.....not THIS time sweeties.....we have 75,000 troops lined up and ready to make mincemeat out of those idiots in bedsheets.

Oh, and by the way...about that old song and dance about Israel killing the poor civillians in Gaza, let me just remind the world that Israel does NOT target civillians and the only reason they are killed is because Hamas hides their launchers and stockpiles under schools and mosques and in heavilly populated areas. We already know that they don't give a damm about their own people and they would rather spend millions of dollars on weapons than on clean drinking water and proper sewage for the populace.

Besides, if we DID target civillians like they do, this operation would be over in one day.

So again, I do not want a cease-fire. I want the IDF to go in and kick some MOFO ass.....

Have a nice day........

P.S.: If I sound angry, it's not directed at you guys. I know you support us and that you don't want any harm to come to us and I appreciate that VERY much.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:36 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono
Uh uh.....not THIS time sweeties.....we have 75,000 troops lined up and ready to make mincemeat out of those idiots in bedsheets.
While I appreciate that this is a complex & difficult situation, this kind of ugly rhetoric doesn't help.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:19 AM   #517
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While I appreciate that this is a complex & difficult situation, this kind of ugly rhetoric doesn't help.
Hi Diemen,
I'm sorry but there's really no nice word to describe a terrorist organization.
That's the kindest thing I could think of.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:51 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono
Uh uh.....not THIS time sweeties.....we have 75,000 troops lined up and ready to make mincemeat out of those idiots in bedsheets.
That sounds like a great action to take if your goal is to create as much Islamic radicalism and anti-Israeli sentiment as possible. This has been tried over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again in human history. And it absolutely never works.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:00 AM   #519
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I'm sorry, AchtungBono... I don't mean to sound insensitive to what you are going through. Because it sounds horrific, and it's honestly beyond my comprehension. I don't blame you for being in the mood that you are in.

It's just tough for me, because this conflict really follows the same colonizer/colonized dynamics that the world has been going through for hundreds of years. And when one side of the conflict is so economically marginalized compared to the other, when one side feels like it has had its prosperity taken from it by the other in recent memory, and when re-gaining prosperity entails going to the "other side"... it always breeds radicalism. Always. And responding with massive fire always creates more radicalism. Radicalism is bred by poverty, and by destruction, and the two combine to make radicals out of everyday people. Economic development and interdependence are usually a good way out, but the blockade is only making that less possible.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:59 AM   #520
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If Mexico lobbed missiles at New York City day after day, do you think the U.S. would wait for 12 years and just take it?.....I don't think the U.S, would wait 12 SECONDS let alone 12 years.
I hope that you stay safe, AchtungBono, as well as your family and friends. I imagine everyone must be really tired and frustrated of this situation dragging on for years, and actually decades.

But the above analogy is poor because it isn't as if the US is occupying the Yucatan peninsula or some other part of the contiguous Mexican state or expanding its cities in southern Texas across the border and then annexing large parts of the land around them.

In no way am I suggesting that the latest militant behaviour by Hamas is acceptable, but this is not a simple conflict that has clear lines of delineation like what you suggest with NYC above.
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:22 PM   #521
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it becomes harder and harder to be 100% align with the Israeli government and all the people that have migrated there over the last 5-6 decades

the Israeli population is comprised of many millions of non-middle eastern people, these people are former Americans, both North and South, European and Soviet peoples. They have migrated to this part of the middle east called many things; Palestine, Israel, West Bank, Gaza, Holy Land, Judea and Samaria.

So what we have is many millions of non-indigenous recent migrants holding land and dictating to millions of people that have lived on this land for hundreds of years.

What is the rational for saying Israel has no fault in this situation?
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #522
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So what we have is many millions of non-indigenous recent migrants holding land and dictating to millions of people that have lived on this land for hundreds of years.
The thing here is that many of these "migrants" truly believe they are in their ancestral homeland and they are really indigenous to Israel. So they think they have a right to move in.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:25 PM   #523
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that really is not true, it is a false premise that some 'religious minded' people put out there

but it is not only a false premise, but also false in practice.

a person could be a full blooded Swede, able to trace his ancestry back 1000s of years in Europe. If he chose to convert to Judaism he could and would be granted a full Israeli citizenship with full privileges over a person that was born what is called Israel, if that person is not Jewish.
He/she could trace their ancestry back to the time of Jesus, and have lived on that same land continuously.
Again, how can anyone make a rational argument for non-citizenship in one's ancestral homeland oven a non middle
easterner, European being given full citizenship.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:32 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by deep
that really is not true, it is a false premise that some 'religious minded' people put out there

but it is not only a false premise, but also false in practice.

a person could be a full blooded Swede, able to trace his ancestry back 1000s of years in Europe. If he chose to convert to Judaism he could and would be granted a full Israeli citizenship with full privileges over a person that was born what is called Israel, if that person is not Jewish.
He/she could trace their ancestry back to the time of Jesus, and have lived on that same land continuously.
Again, how can anyone make a rational argument for non-citizenship in one's ancestral homeland oven a non middle
easterner, European being given full citizenship.
I was simply pointing how many justify going to Israel and settling in areas they are not supposed to settle in, according to international law.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:45 PM   #525
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ok, fair enough

I am familiar with the argument, I was raised with believers, with the concepts of 'chosen people', Israel being restored in the 'last days', the temple being rebuilt, these were things I learned as a young child and I believed they were the right things to be happening, all on the foundation of our religious beliefs.

Once, I started letting go of religion influencing my beliefs, I went to the concept of is this the 'the right' or 'most' right thing to do. Why should one sides religious arguments have more sway than the other side? Should religious arguments have influence in taking territory away from one group and giving it to another?

I try and be aware of what all sides are saying.
In the end I can only say what I believe are more credible and legitimate arguments.

And sadly sometimes there is not an ideal outcome, or even a better outcome, only less bad ones.
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