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Old 06-04-2011, 07:20 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Here's the difference and I'll quote from a Charles Krauthamer piece as he can expalin it better than I.
So, knowing that the Palestinians have been offered that deal 3 times and turned it down each time, your claim that Obama's position is Pro-Palestinian seems illogical.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:13 PM   #392
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So, knowing that the Palestinians have been offered that deal 3 times and turned it down each time, your claim that Obama's position is Pro-Palestinian seems illogical.

Pro-Palestinian, well yes, because it's much like his position on same-sex marriage. We know what he really thinks about gay marriage don't we? and we know what his position would on the law be if he ruled rather than governed the country as an elected official.

President Obama, deep in his heart, I believe wants a two state solution. But his world view is that Israel is the illegal occupier and the major obstacle to peace in the region.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:41 PM   #393
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Now you'd think....you'd think... it would be the far-Right that would work with religious radicals and be sympathetic to their fights and causes. "Women as chattel, theocracy, kill the gays. Count us in !!" And that the Left... the Left... would shun those parts of the Muslim world that fail to observe gay rights, equality for women, free speech or secular democracy.

But it's just the opposite. It's the far-Left that gives aid to Islamic Totalitarianism. Why is that? Why is it that if a Christian speaks out about the lack of human rights in Muslim countries or if a conservative (Bill O'Reilly) states that "there is a Muslim problem in the world," it's those on the Left that walkout in protest or shout "Islamophobia!!" ?
-Indy 500

except that it's not just the opposite and you've created a situation that's rhetorically beneficial but really not rooted in reality.
Not rooted in reality? The current issue of the Nation magazine has an article entitled "Can Obama Beat the Israel Lobby?" Think you're gonna see an article like that in the Weekly Standard, WSJ or National Review?

Why is it the biggest defenders of Israel for the past 15 years (covering issues including rocket attacks from Lebanon, scandalous U.N. resolutions and reports, the West Bank wall and phoney peace flotillas) on radio and TV are conservatives like Rush, Hannity Levin, Beck, Ingraham, etc? And the Helen Thomases of the world are on the Left?

And which ideology thinks that "Islamophobia" is real and which one thinks it's nothing but political correctness meant to suppress debate?

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look at, say, female genital mutilation in Africa. it was women's groups who brought this issue to right, and i didn't see anyone on the Left supporting the right of societies to slice out the genitalia of an 11-year old girl in the name of "multiculturalism."

and there are many gay organizations that seek to help gay refugees from African and Muslim countries get out of these countries and off to London, New York, or wherever. however, the government of the US seems to be not as sympathetic as it could be to these cases.
Good, thanks for pointing that out. This really shouldn't be a Left vs Right deal. I'd like to think we could work together to end hunger, preventable illnesses, barbaric practices and obvious human rights violations around the world.
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:59 PM   #394
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Not rooted in reality? The current issue of the Nation magazine has an article entitled "Can Obama Beat the Israel Lobby?" Think you're gonna see an article like that in the Weekly Standard, WSJ or National Review?

right ... the Israel Lobby. not Israel, not the Israeli people, most of whom are to the left of AIPAC. and the Israeli lobby, btw, is hardly filled with Jews. there are lots and lots of fundamentalist Christians.




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Why is it the biggest defenders of Israel for the past 15 years (covering issues including rocket attacks from Lebanon, scandalous U.N. resolutions and reports, the West Bank wall and phoney peace flotillas) on radio and TV are conservatives like Rush, Hannity Levin, Beck, Ingraham, etc? And the Helen Thomases of the world are on the Left?

you have a very monolithic view of Israel and what it means to "defend" Israel -- you don't mention or even acknowledge that within Israel itself is a a large peace movement and much internal dissent and debate on Israel's tactics. conservatives love the Israel issue precisely because they know that the big boogeyman out there, now that the Soviets are no more, are Muslims.

the conservatives you mentioned are about one thing: money. and the Israeli issue is a large part of the apocalyptic, clash-of-civilizations paranoia that i mentioned earlier, and they know that the people who spend money on their books are fundamentalist Christians who are quite concerned not just with killing Muslims but also with the Rapture happening in their lifetimes.

and, further, this is precisely the kind of issue where the Right wields political correctness -- ANY criticism of Israel is ANTI-SEMETIC!!! -- in a way that they complain the Left uses racism or sexism.



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And which ideology thinks that "Islamophobia" is real and which one thinks it's nothing but political correctness meant to suppress debate?

how is Islamophobia not real? why on earth would people in Okalahoma, of all places, ban Sharia Law if not for some invented boogeyman?
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:43 PM   #395
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But his world view is that Israel is the illegal occupier and the major obstacle to peace in the region.
I think his world view is decidedly more nuanced than that over-simplification. And if Obama is pro-Palestinian, what does that make former Mossad chief Meir Dagan?

Ex-Mossad Chief Sounds Alarm on Israel's Leaders

Israel government 'reckless and irresponsible' says ex-Mossad chief | World news | The Guardian
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:42 AM   #396
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Pro-Palestinian, well yes, because it's much like his position on same-sex marriage. We know what he really thinks about gay marriage don't we? and we know what his position would on the law be if he ruled rather than governed the country as an elected official.

President Obama, deep in his heart, I believe wants a two state solution. But his world view is that Israel is the illegal occupier and the major obstacle to peace in the region.
How are you so good at reading the hearts of people you don't like, yet can't figure out the hearts of those you love?
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:47 AM   #397
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Hello Everyone,

When Israel first captured the territories in 1967, it was never going to be a permanent situation - at least not in the case of the West Bank, Gaza and Sinai, and it was always known that Israel was going to be negotiating the return of territories in exchange for peace.

Israel has always stated that we have no desire to rule over 1.5 million Palestinians (at that time) and that we are ready to negotiate the return of territories captured in '67 (as clearly stated in UN resolution 242 - it says TERRITORIES and not THE TERRITORIES.....).

Since 1967, the demographics and politics of the region have changed. Israel now has a population of 7 million (compared to 3.5 million in 1967). The security situation has changed as well. The Middle Eastern arms race has produced more sophisticated weapons which negate the need for hand to hand ground combat. Today, nations can sit in their bunkers and fire long-range missiles at each other with almost no need for a ground war.

The latest missile technology acquired by Syria and Lebanon (curteousy of Iran) has created a situation where long-range missiles are now able to cover practically every corner of Israel.

In the past, Israel has negotiated land withdrawls with Egypt and Jordan in exchange for peace (Egypt got the Sinai Peninsula), but Syria and Lebanon have remained stubborn in their positions. Syria is demanding the return of the entire Golan Heights - which is the one of the most strategic points in the country. Israel cannot afford to lose these northern "eyes".

To emphasize these points, and to show you how Israel cannot go back to the pre-'67 borders, I am posting a clip which will show you exactly what Israel's security needs are at the present.

On a side note, we have no problem with the two-state solution - which has been on the table since 1947 when the UN voted for the partition plan. However, this Palestinian state must recognize Israel's existence, must negotiate land for peace and, most importantly, be totally demilitarized. It is madness to think that Israel will accept a Palestinian state armed with rockets and morters and long-range missiles which can target our cities at any time.

So for your convenience and enlightenment, I invite you to watch this clip. Maybe you'll have a better understanding after you've seen it.

Thanks.


YouTube - ‪Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace‬‏
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:30 AM   #398
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"Israel's security needs" are a result of Israeli illegal settlement policy. Israel would not have such needs if Israel did not have some 400,000+ settlers ILLEGALLY occupying land and making the West Bank look like Swiss cheese. Let's at least be honest about who created the "reality on the ground" here. And that illegality continues day in and day out.
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:45 AM   #399
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Well, to be fair, some Israeli courts and the odd apocalyptic preacher with a Fox News show think they're legal, therefore, the other 99.99999% of the world are wrong.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:55 PM   #400
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The only instance in which you'll hear liberals decrying "illegal" immigration by the way.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:29 PM   #401
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The only instance in which you'll hear liberals decrying "illegal" immigration by the way.
And of course the flipside to that - the only instance in which conservatives are all for illegal immigration. Isn't reducing complex arguments to deceptive over-simplifications fun?

Out of curiousity, would you be okay with immigrants coming in and bulldozing your home to build their own?
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:24 PM   #402
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And of course the flipside to that - the only instance in which conservatives are all for illegal immigration.
Which would only proves the point I've been making all weekend. That the American Left & Right have reversed their poles when it comes to their Middle East arguments.
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Isn't reducing complex arguments to deceptive over-simplifications fun?
Hey, let's invent a phrase for that. I propose "sound bite."
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Out of curiousity, would you be okay with immigrants coming in and bulldozing your home to build their own?
Hey, you're catching on quick. Nice sound bite.

My turn. Would I previously been launching rockets out of those homes?
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:59 PM   #403
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So I take it your position is either that settlements are perfectly legal, or "well, fuck 'em all, they all deserve it" (or a bit of both)?
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:24 AM   #404
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PM would accept pre-’67 lines as baseline for talks
By HERB KEINON,
08/03/2011 06:32

Israel to negotiate using 1967 lines, with mutually agreed swaps, if Palestinians accept two states, one Palestinian and one Jewish.

With the Palestinians set to seek recognition of statehood at the UN in just a number of weeks, Israel said Tuesday it would be willing to accept the 1967 lines as a framework for talks as part of a package in which the Palestinians would recognize Jewish state.

Israeli officials said this framework would be a package deal whereby Israel would agree to entering negotiations using the 1967 lines, with mutually agreed upon swaps, as the baseline of talks; and the Palestinians would agree that the final goal of negotiations would be two states, a Palestinian one and Jewish one.

PM would accept pre-’67 lines as ... JPost - Diplomacy & Politics
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Old 08-20-2011, 03:24 AM   #405
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Hi everyone,

After several months of relative quiet, the missiles have returned to the southern part of Israel and my hometown of Ashdod in particular.

Two days ago I was woken at 5:30am by the sounds of the siren. Since our bedrooms are upstairs and we had 45 seconds to get to a safe area in our house (which is downstairs), I flew out of bed and tripped on the stairs - resulting in a black eye and some pain when I fell on my shoulder.

The missiles started falling after Israel retaliated against the terrorists who carried out a combined attack two days ago which killed 8 Israelis along the wide-open border between Israel and Egypt.

Since then, we (my sister, mother and I) have been sleeping downstairs on our couches and steeling ourselves in anticipation of the next sirens and missiles -which have already fallen this morning and injured 3 people (see below article).

So thank goodness me and my family and loved ones are safe and I have every confidence that the army will take care of this situation.

Just thought I'd let you all know.

Rockets hit Ashdod in southern Israel, three Palestinian workers wounded - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
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