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Old 06-03-2011, 09:51 AM   #376
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how easily they are played, and how obvious their real issue is.


yup.

they love it when Jews kill Muslims for them. this whole Israel-as-the-front-line-in-the-inevitable-clash-of-civilizations-with-an-apocalyptic-angle really gets their genitals tingling.

all that said, there are some who stand firmly behind Israel's right to exist, and know that a two-state solution based upon the 1967 borders is actually the best way to ensure Israel's future.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:32 PM   #377
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Actually, if you're referring to the "pre-1967 borders with agreed land swaps" that right-wing media has equated to treason and Netanyahu has manufactured into a scandal, that position was held by the past 3 US Presidents (at least), as well as three past Israeli prime ministers (Barak, Olmert and Sharon).
In diplomatic negotiations yes. But no public speeches that I remember.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:35 PM   #378
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yup.

they love it when Jews kill Muslims for them. this whole Israel-as-the-front-line-in-the-inevitable-clash-of-civilizations-with-an-apocalyptic-angle really gets their genitals tingling.
Classy
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all that said, there are some who stand firmly behind Israel's right to exist, and know that a two-state solution based upon the 1967 borders is actually the best way to ensure Israel's future.
Unfortunately Hamas believes in neither Israel's right to exist or a two-state solution.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:46 PM   #379
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The "Obama threw Israel under the bus" thing and the ensuing orgy around Netanyahu just goes to show how truly full-on ignorant so many US conservatives are, how easily they are played, and how obvious their real issue is.
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May 31, 2011
The reason there is no peace in the Middle East is very simple. It’s because the majority of Palestinians and the majority of Arabs don’t believe there should be an Israel. It’s that simple. Anyone who tries to figure out a way to solve this conflict without realizing that truth will never get anywhere.
-- noted "full-on ignorant U.S. conservative" Senator Charles Schumer (D) of NY.
And the Pro-Palestinian Left in this country is not happy with him.

Schumer Falsely Claims Most Arabs, Palestinians Don’t Accept Israel’s Existence | ThinkProgress
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:34 PM   #380
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Classy

then you tell me why Palin wears her Israeli flag pin and talks about having an Israeli flag in her office while governor of Alaska. have you heard Huckabee's Rapture-focused comments or Beck's recent visit. it is absolutely fundamentalist bonkers stuff, and it is absolutely of the philo-Semitism i spoke of earlier -- love for the Jews so long as they are "useful" for various Christian projects.


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Unfortunately Hamas believes in neither Israel's right to exist or a two-state solution.

and i agree that this is one of the preconditions for peace. while Hamas is a much more complex organization than most people in the US understand it to be, Israel absolutely has a basic right to exist.

this is Obama's position too.
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:21 PM   #381
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"He is one of the most rightwing militant people ever born here ... who ate Arabs for breakfast, lunch and dinner. When this man says that the leadership has no vision and is irresponsible, we should stop sleeping soundly at night."
Israel government 'reckless and irresponsible' says ex-Mossad chief | World news | The Guardian
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:29 PM   #382
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In diplomatic negotiations yes. But no public speeches that I remember.
I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is (and I'm guessing it is at least less a case of it not being mentioned at all, and more a case of it usually being crowded in diplo-speak, i.e. Obama was just more blunt) I'm not sure why that would matter?
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:38 PM   #383
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In diplomatic negotiations yes. But no public speeches that I remember.
I'm confused: why does publicly stating something that has been a diplomatic standard for decades amount to betraying Israel?

Care to explain?
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:49 PM   #384
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I'm confused: why does publicly stating something that has been a diplomatic standard for decades amount to betraying Israel?

Care to explain?

I should imagine it's same reason the #1 drafted quarterback doesn't say in the papers or on TV what $ amount he'll accept to sign. It's a bargaining chip. Not that I'm a diplomat.

Anyway, here's a few public quotes from Obama's and Netanyahu's predecessors.

“The border of the State of Israel … will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War.” We will not return to the June 1967 lines.”
--Yitzhak Rabin

A 2004 letter from GW Bush and the U.S. Congress to Ariel Sharon stated “It is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949.”
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:53 PM   #385
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and i agree that this is one of the preconditions for peace. while Hamas is a much more complex organization than most people in the US understand it to be, Israel absolutely has a basic right to exist.

this is Obama's position too.
When you can find bumper stickers in the Gaza strip then I'd say it's time for Israel to start talking '67 borders.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:45 PM   #386
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You've done a smash up job answering Diemen's and Irvine's very straight forward questions

INDY, are you even capable of discussing this issue? You seem at a lost, you seem to really only know what Hannity tells you about the subject.
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:59 AM   #387
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I should imagine it's same reason the #1 drafted quarterback doesn't say in the papers or on TV what $ amount he'll accept to sign. It's a bargaining chip. Not that I'm a diplomat.
But it's very well publicly known. It's not a secret, private, hush-hush bargaining chip. It's been the basis of US policy for decades. Everyone knows that. Or at least everyone who pays attention to news beyond screaming Drudge headlines, squawking Palin quotes, whining Hannity rants and illogical Beck freakouts. And it's widely and well known to anyone who actually is either interested or invested in the peace process, and so pays attention to the ongoing negotiations. '1967 + Land Swaps' is absolutely public, widely known, widely published, and widely, publicly pushed, and has been for a long, long time. When Obama said that, I didn't bat an eyelid. It was absolutely nothing new, to anyone. The *only* interesting/new component to his speech was the Jordan/Palestine border. That's something that it would be fair to say that the US has from time to time wanted, to some degree (President depending), but never publicly declared or pushed for in such a way. THAT was new. 1967+Land Swaps? Not in the slightest.

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“The border of the State of Israel … will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War.” We will not return to the June 1967 lines.”
--Yitzhak Rabin
And no-one has ever said they have to. 1967 basis + land swaps beyond.

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A 2004 letter from GW Bush and the U.S. Congress to Ariel Sharon stated “It is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949.”
1949. Again, that's never, ever been anywhere near the table.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:34 AM   #388
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Here's the difference and I'll quote from a Charles Krauthamer piece as he can expalin it better than I.

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He (President Obama) declared that the Arab-Israeli conflict should indeed be resolved along “the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps.”

Nothing new here, said Obama three days later. “By definition, it means that the parties themselves — Israelis and Palestinians — will negotiate a border that is different” from 1967.

It means nothing of the sort. “Mutually” means both parties have to agree. And if one side doesn’t? Then, by definition, you’re back to the 1967 lines.

Nor is this merely a theoretical proposition. Three times the Palestinians have been offered exactly that formula, 1967 plus swaps — at Camp David 2000, Taba 2001, and the 2008 Olmert-Abbas negotiations. Every time, the Palestinians said no and walked away.

And that remains their position today: The 1967 lines. Period. Indeed, in September the Palestinians are going to the U.N. to get the world to ratify precisely that: a Palestinian state on the ’67 lines. No swaps.
Thanks for your response but now I'm going to spend the rest of this beautiful weekend not thinking about this 3000+ year conflict.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:44 AM   #389
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Yep. Well, we weren't debating whether or not it is a hotly contested and/or widely accepted good idea or basis, or it's realistic chances of working - just whether or not Obamas mention of it in that speech was him "throwing Israel under the bus", and given exactly that has been the foundation/starting point of US policy for decades, the answer is 'no'. The Krauthamer points aren't wrong (although he's being very, very cheeky with his wording there in regards to the reasons why the Palestinians rejected some of those deals) they're just points for a different debate.
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:29 PM   #390
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Yep. Well, we weren't debating whether or not it is a hotly contested and/or widely accepted good idea or basis, or it's realistic chances of working - just whether or not Obamas mention of it in that speech was him "throwing Israel under the bus", and given exactly that has been the foundation/starting point of US policy for decades, the answer is 'no'. The Krauthamer points aren't wrong (although he's being very, very cheeky with his wording there in regards to the reasons why the Palestinians rejected some of those deals) they're just points for a different debate.
All I know is Obama's speech had not only the GOP, Charles Krauthamer, Hannity and Glenn Beck "freaking out," but prominent Jewish groups and high-ranking Democrats such as Steny Hoyer, Joe Lieberman and Harry Reid publicly distancing themselves from the president's comments.
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