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Old 06-01-2010, 07:56 AM   #16
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is Israel safer and more secure now than it was in 2000? do you think that Israel's actions over the past 10 years -- whether defensible or not -- have contributed to it's overall security and quality of life, or have detracted from it?

if the claims about Hamas are true -- that they gleefully allow civilians to get killed in order to further their own narrative, a claim which i think has merit -- why does Israel continue to play right into their hands each and every time?
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:24 AM   #17
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Dear Friends,

Let me ask you a few questions.....when the U.S.A went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan did you hear a PEEP out of Israel? NO

When U.S. missile strikes accidently killed Afghan civillians and the world condemmed the U.S. - did you hear a PEEP out of Israel? NO

If Bin Laden wanted to sail his yacht into New York harbour, would the U.S, let him through or would they blow him to kingdom come? and if they did blow him up - would you hear a PEEP from Israel? NO

When the Hamas government sends us suicide bombers, shell our civillian population with morters and rockets, destroying our homes and infrastructures, should we just go on as if nothing happened and let them continue with their regular lives? When they hold one of our soldiers captive for nearly 4 years in a booby-trapped underground bunker without letting the Red Cross visit him - is there even a question about whether we should let aid into Gaza? (which we are anyway....).

If you are looking for someone to blame for the debacle, you need look no further than at two of the terrorist leaders: Ismail Haniya (the dictator of Gaza) and Haled Mash'al (who pulls the strings in Damascus). These two people, along with their henchmen, have been holding the Palestinian people hostage ever since they brutally seized power in Gaza. It is their actions that have brought Israel to declare a naval blockade of Gaza (which it is entitled to under International law).

Do not be fooled by the venom spouted by Hamas since this incident happened. They did exactly the same thing as they always do - put civilians in danger to serve their murderous purposes. Just like they did when they started the war with Israel in December of 2008 - they have no regard for human life. They knew very well that Israel wasn't going to let the flotilla into Gaza port and that there would be some sort of confrontation - but they didn't care: quite the opposite - the more people killed the better it looks on TV so then they can cry their crocodile tears and pretend to mourn their "brethren" who died 'courageously" against the "Zionist pirates". What baloney!

By the way, I find it interesting that both Ismail Haniya and Haled Mash'al chose not to be on board any of these ships which were supposedly headed to bring relief to their people. It could have been a huge PR coup for them but, of course, it's clear why they weren't there – why should they put themselves in danger? Better to let other people get hurt or killed, right? Just like during the Gaza war in 2008 when the Hamas leadership hid underground like cowards and didn't show themselves while their people were going through unspeakable suffering brought on by the actions of Hamas themselves.

The funniest thing is that they say it was a humanitarian flotilla bringing aid to Gaza - that's a load of BULL. People on a humanitarian mission don't carry knives and guns and DON'T violate international law by raiding a naval blockade which was legally imposed.

When the Israeli navy approached the ships, they clearly called out to them that they were entering a hostile area and that the captain was putting his passengers and crew at risk. The navy ordered the ships to change course and head for the port of Ashdod where their cargo could be unloaded and transported to Gaza by land – the way all goods have been transported into Gaza till now. The navy specifically told the captain of one of the ships that he was putting the people at risk – you know what the captain said? "Fuck you!!".

It was at that point that Israel took defensive action and ordered the soldiers to board the ships. The soldiers intentions were to take command of the vessel, sail it into Ashdod port, check the cargo for ammunition and banned goods and then unload it and convey the humanitarian aid to Gaza, at which point the ships could sail back to their home ports.

All in all, there were 6 ships in this flotilla. 5 ships were taken relatively peacefully, but the Turkish flagship "Marmara" turned out to be the rogue ship whose human cargo of bullies and terrorist supporters met the Israeli soldiers with small arms fire, knives, fire extinguishers, baseball bats – and even threw one soldier overboard. The Israeli soldiers didn't expect such a violent response from so-called "Humanitarians" and were forced to open fire to defend themselves or be lynched – as the video footage clearly shows.

The pictures shown on TV were shocking! These "humanitarians" came well-prepared to tackle the Israeli soldiers: they had knives, baseball bats and a few guns – just what the children of Gaza need, right? You can clearly see these bullies beating up the Israeli soldiers and the desperate situation the soldiers got into – which forced them to fight back.

With this action, Israel did exactly what the United States and any other civilized nation would have done – defended its border against illegal entry. If the world wants to condemn us for that then everyone is grossly misinformed and I'm sorry that they're buying into the anti-Israel propaganda that is rampant in the media these days.

What happened was a tragedy for the Palestinian people – for once again they were led astray by their leaders and once again Hamas caused unnecessary deaths among people who were supposedly there to help them.

As of now, all 6 ships are in Ashdod port. The navy and the Israeli police are checking the cargo thoroughly before unloading the ships and conveying the cargo on trucks to the Gaza strip for distribution – which was our intention all along if this provocation hadn't happened.

Whatever the eventual outcome of this unfortunate incident, I'm very sorry for the innocent people who joined this flotilla believing that they were on a mission of mercy when actually they were used as pawns in the hands of Hamas – and the blood of each and every casualty on board those ships is all on Hamas' hands.

By the way - I invite you all to check out the official IDF channel on Youtube where you can see all the raw footage and get the true coverage and story of what happened.

YouTube - idfnadesk's Channel

As a concerned citizen of Israel, and as a human being, I look forward to better times when terrorism is no longer a threat to anyone, when people of all nations and faiths learn to get along together for the good of mankind, and when the world is filled with love, joy, friendship and peace.


It's obvious that the intentions weren’t completely pure & humanitarian. I also agree that double standards do exist. Yes, Hamas is a murderous organization; its drive is not even national but religious. All you have to do is look at their covenant and see the paragraphs that blame the Jews for everything that's wrong with the world and the ones that mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a legitimate document.

In spite all of this, try for just one time to let go of need to justify every act our country does. This could've been handled very differently. You don't have to play the spokesman; you're not paid for it. Quite frankly, the people you're so keen to defend couldn't care less about you (especially Ehud Barak). Despite what you may think, they don't know how to get out of this situation. They're fighting a war they cannot win, and treating a very complicated conflict as if they're planning another military operation like they did most of their lives.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:34 AM   #18
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Bono himself idiotically blamed the Palestinians, in effect, for not adopting non-violence. Well, Moustaffa Barghouti has been doing it for years. He's been imprisoned by the Israeli government, and he reports being beaten at an Israeli checkpoint. He was nominated for the Peace Prize, so Bono has no right to talk like that or claim ignorance.

Besides, Ghandi was dealing with a declining British empire, not a colonizing force. Even Martin Luther King isn't an example of great success because King began to realize that the American Dream couldn't fulfill blacks' hopes of employment and ending discrimination in a meaningful way. He began to criticize US foreign policy and capitalism toward the end of his life. It's people like Bono who whitewash what really happened and insist that nonviolence is the only way. He didn't feel that way after September 11, 2001, when he encouraged the bombing of Afghanistan. It's funny how it's those not on Bono's donor list (for African funding) who must always turn the other cheek.
Besides being on a U2 board, I have no idea why you would mention Bono. I can't think of one time when Bono blamed Palestinians with any detail. Nor can I think of anytime when he encouraged the bombing of Afghanistan.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:38 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
is Israel safer and more secure now than it was in 2000? do you think that Israel's actions over the past 10 years -- whether defensible or not -- have contributed to it's overall security and quality of life, or have detracted from it?

if the claims about Hamas are true -- that they gleefully allow civilians to get killed in order to further their own narrative, a claim which i think has merit -- why does Israel continue to play right into their hands each and every time?
Hello Irvine,

1. Actually, I'd say YES. Israel's internal security is a lot better now. Maybe not since 2000, but certainly over the past few years since we've taken several steps to prevent the infiltration of terrorist elements into the country - including roadblocks, restrictions on border crossings, and other measures necessary for our security. As you probably remember, there was a horrible time in the past (specifically after the start of the 2000 second Intifada) when we were experiencing a wave of suicide bombings instigated by Hamas all over the country - especially in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv - which resulted in hundreds of Israeli casualties. These acts of terror spawned reprisals by Israel against the Hamas bases in Gaza, which are deliberately located in heavily populated areas, resulting also in thousands of innocent lives lost on the Palestinian side.

The steps taken by Israel since Hamas seized power in Gaza have certainly contributed to our internal security - and this includes the naval blockade and border crossing restrictions which make sure that Hamas is hindered from smuggling weapons and materials used in the construction of Quassam rockets which they fired constantly for years at our southern cities.
Also, we have been aided by the Egyptians who do their part to prevent smuggling through the tunnels dug in the Sinai dessert - tunnels that are used to smuggle arms, drugs, and even people - as Hamas did when they kidnapped Gilad Shalit. I realize that the Egyptians did this for their own reasons and purposes and not so much for love of Israel - but still, the end result is what is important.
Israel's response to Hamas' aggression in 2008 certainly dealt Hamas a terrible blow (which they of course claim is a victory) and brought the rocket fire to a halt, athough the fire has recently started again sporadically.

So to answer your question - YES. We are more secure now than we were before - by the grace of G-d, and hopefully it will continue.

2. I know what you mean, however there was no way Israel was going to let this propaganda flotilla enter the port of Gaza in violation of a legally imposed blockade. We knew very well that this blockade violation was going to be covered by the world media. If we really didn't care about that, our naval ships would have sunk the flotilla without any hesitation - but we did NOT want an armed confrontation - we were forced into it by the actions of the hooligans on board the Marmara who attacked our soldiers who had every legal right to stop these ships from violating the blockade. As I mentioned before, we had absolutely no problem with the humantarian aid going to Gaza but we HAD to make sure that there were no weapons on board or materials which Israel has banned from entering the Gaza strip because they are used as building materials for the Quassam rockets and morters.

So yes, I know that what happened played into the hands of Hamas, who just love to display dead bodies in full color, and if the choice was ours we would have done things differently - but we didn't have that luxury.

Hamas does what it does for PR and propaganda purposes - we do what we do for survival.....
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:48 AM   #20
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Dickheads on both sides, as usual.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:49 AM   #21
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It's obvious that the intentions weren’t completely pure & humanitarian. I also agree that double standards do exist. Yes, Hamas is a murderous organization; its drive is not even national but religious. All you have to do is look at their covenant and see the paragraphs that blame the Jews for everything that's wrong with the world and the ones that mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a legitimate document.

In spite all of this, try for just one time to let go of need to justify every act our country does. This could've been handled very differently. You don't have to play the spokesman; you're not paid for it. Quite frankly, the people you're so keen to defend couldn't care less about you (especially Ehud Barak). Despite what you may think, they don't know how to get out of this situation. They're fighting a war they cannot win, and treating a very complicated conflict as if they're planning another military operation like they did most of their lives.
Shalom Sarit - I agree with you that this operation could have been executed differently and I'm positive that the right conclusions will be reached for the next time - which will be in about two days when two more ships are due to arrive. I may have reservations about the execution of the operation - especially about the tragic loss of life - but I completely justify the action itself.

As for Ehud Barak not caring for me....well, that's life - he may not care about me but I DO care about my country and the way it is always portrayed as the bad guy of the world, without justification. And I don't post these messages as a representative of the Israeli government, but rather as a regular woman who is tired of seeing her country used as a punching bag over and over again for doing what any other civilized country would have done in its place.
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:46 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Dear Friends,

Let me ask you a few questions.....when the U.S.A went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan did you hear a PEEP out of Israel? NO
A few things:

1. What does this have to do with anything?
2. Why would we hear a peep out of Israel when it was happy that the US was doing this?
3. Israel has no right to issue a PEEP since it's sucking at the teat of America at a GREAT COST to the American taxpayer, the American soldiers and in general, the loss of goodwill towards America in the Muslim world.
4. Despite #3 above, Israel continues to slap America in the face, as Joe Biden most recently experienced firsthand.

If you are happy to live in an apartheid state with bantustans, that is your business. Don't be shocked if some of the rest of us happen to find it distasteful.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:11 AM   #23
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good luck getting sanctions on Iran now.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:16 AM   #24
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A few things:

1. What does this have to do with anything?
2. Why would we hear a peep out of Israel when it was happy that the US was doing this?
3. Israel has no right to issue a PEEP since it's sucking at the teat of America at a GREAT COST to the American taxpayer, the American soldiers and in general, the loss of goodwill towards America in the Muslim world.
4. Despite #3 above, Israel continues to slap America in the face, as Joe Biden most recently experienced firsthand.

If you are happy to live in an apartheid state with bantustans, that is your business. Don't be shocked if some of the rest of us happen to find it distasteful.
Hello Anitram,

1. Of course it does - America's actions in Afghanistan and Iraq are wars fought for America's defense - as was this action. We were defending our border against illegal infiltration.

2. The point is - we don't go poking our noses into other people's business. It doesn't matter if we agreed or not - how America fights its war against terrorists is nobody's business but America's - and good for America!!!

3. So what you're saying is that if Israel didn't exist all the Muslims would be rushing into America's brotherly embrace, right? We're the only ones standing in the way of a perfect union between the Arab nations and the "great Satan"?
And what cost to the American soldiers exactly? If I recall correctly, in 62 years of statehood, not ONE American soldier fought in any of the wars forced upon us...so what do you mean?
It is true that Israel receives aid from the U.S. as do many other nations in the world - the only difference being that Israel is surrounded by nations that has been seeking its destruction since even before the state was created and our security needs are larger than most countries. The aid that the U.S. gives is not wasted and recipracated in many ways and there is no stronger ally for the United States than Israel.

4. What happened with Joe Biden was blown way out of proportion - we announced a building plan for apartments in Jerusalem...WOW what a tragedy!! imagine!! Israel planning apartments in our own capital city....shocking!! I wonder if there would be the same outcry if Pres. Obama announced a new urban renewal plan in Washington DC.

As for the mantra of the "Apartheid state" - that's a broken record that has been played to death. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and, basically, the only real friend that America has.....

By the way, I mean no disrespect to you or your opinions. I've sparred verbally with you on many occasions and I respect you - as I respect everyone here.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:20 AM   #25
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good luck getting sanctions on Iran now.
What does one have to do with another?

Iran developing nuclear weapons which will ultimately wind up in the hands of terrorists is something the entire world should be afraid of and work against.

Not getting sanctions against Iran because of this will be the world cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Make no mistake - Iran with nuclear weapons threatens you and me and EVERYONE in the world....and they WILL be stopped one way or another.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:20 AM   #26
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does it not make sense tou you, Achtung, that most of Israel's actions -- a wealthy, powerful army financed by the US and part of a powerful economy, especially when compared to the awfulness of the densely populated and absolutely destroyed Gaza -- are viewed as being entirely disproportionate to the actual situation on hand, as this incident seems to exemplify, and that makes it harder for everyone to make any sort of advancement towards a sustainable, peaceful, likely two-state solution? and it also makes it more difficult to rally world opinion against actual, present dangers like the Iranian regime? and that, once again, Israel has played directly into the Hamas playbook and further isolated itself from people who really do want Israel to succeed?

is shooting a gnat with a bazooka really the way to go?
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:22 AM   #27
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What does one have to do with another?

Iran developing nuclear weapons which will ultimately wind up in the hands of terrorists is something the entire world should be afraid of and work against.

Not getting sanctions against Iran because of this will be the world cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Make no mistake - Iran with nuclear weapons threatens you and me and EVERYONE in the world....and they WILL be stopped one way or another.

i agree!

so let's have a proportional response! please! there's so much at stake, and the actions of Bibi's right wing government make it more difficult for anything productive to happen.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:38 AM   #28
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does it not make sense tou you, Achtung, that most of Israel's actions -- a wealthy, powerful army financed by the US and part of a powerful economy, especially when compared to the awfulness of the densely populated and absolutely destroyed Gaza -- are viewed as being entirely disproportionate to the actual situation on hand, as this incident seems to exemplify, and that makes it harder for everyone to make any sort of advancement towards a sustainable, peaceful, likely two-state solution? and it also makes it more difficult to rally world opinion against actual, present dangers like the Iranian regime? and that, once again, Israel has played directly into the Hamas playbook and further isolated itself from people who really do want Israel to succeed?

is shooting a gnat with a bazooka really the way to go?
The problem is that there is more than one gnat - there is an army of gnats with nasty bites - so we need to use the bazooka to get rid of the nest...

But enough metaphors...I'm getting itchy...lol.

Seriously though, this is no laughing matter......
I'm not disputing the fact that Gaza is in ruins and that the Palestinians are suffering horribly. In fact, I'm looking forward to the day when Hamas is driven out of Gaza and the state of Palestine is finally created with a true Palestinian leadership that can lead their people out of the squalor and opression they've been under since Hamas took power. I've said countless times before that peace could have been reached YEARS ago were it not for the stubborness of the other side - but that's another story.

As I said, Israel's actions in this incident were not expected and not planned. The soldiers knew the takeover wouldn't be a pushover but they certainly didn't expect to be met with the level of violence that occured - and again, the soldier's response was defensive and not offensive.
Remember, we didn't go in there with guns blazing - the soldiers only opened fire after being physically attacked.

I believe that the worldwide condemnation of Israel is the natural knee-jerk reaction to any defensive measures we take against our enemies and it doesn't surprise me anymore. Eventually, as more and more facts become known, this condemnation will be replaced with understanding that we are fighting a war and we have every right to defend ourselves against those who try and violate our sovereignty(sp?) by trying to crash our borders illegaly.

I have to leave now, I'll be back tomorrow. Please feel free to ask me any questions and I'll answer them to the best of my ability. In the meantime, check out the link I posted in my original message - the IDF channel on youtube. You will get more information and background.

Thanks everyone for your comments.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:40 AM   #29
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i do find it interesting that both "sides" -- for lack of a better word -- moan about the coverage. seems to me that the world might actually be doing a better job of covering this than we're led to believe by said "sides."
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Old 06-01-2010, 01:10 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
how America fights its war against terrorists is nobody's business but America's - and good for America!!!
This makes absolutely no sense.

Just think about that statement for a little while, and apply it to everyone else.
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