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Old 06-10-2010, 12:09 PM   #241
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Again, the British, League of Nations did not search the globe and decide on spot to put Israel. The desire to form Israel did not come from the League of Nations, or the British, but Jews living in Israel/Palestine upon the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. How can it be ok for citizens living in Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey to form those state, but its NOT ok for Jews living in Israel/Palestine to form a state of their own called Israel?
Which group of people shoud have been allowed to form their own state in Palestine? The Jews or the Arabs?
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:55 PM   #242
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Which group of people shoud have been allowed to form their own state in Palestine? The Jews or the Arabs?

Both! Over 70% of the land west of the Jordan river back then was uninhabited. You could of had a Jewish state, an Arab State, a Christian state, etc. This is the conclusion of the United Nations in 1947 as well. Its what will happen if the Palestinians ever decide to agree to a peace deal.
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:12 PM   #243
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The continual positioning that Israel offers peace and Arabs reject it always smells like pure propoganda.
No, its actually a fact when you look at the history. Israel has never been against the formation of a Palestinian state. They accepted the United Nations Peace Plan in 1947. The Palestinians and Arabs rejected it and then brutally started the 1948 war. Ever since 1948, the Palestinians and Arabs have refused to reconize Israel's right to exist, and have consistently launched terrorist attacks to murder Jews as well as starting wars designed to wipe Israel from the map.

All Israel has tried to do is survive in a sea of people that have for decades tried to destroy them.

The Palestinians were offered a deal which gave them over 90% of what they wanted in 2000, Bill Clintons peace plan, but they rejected it. Where is the non-violent Palestinian movement? Why does the vast majority of Palestinian attempts to get a state involve only violence, war, and terrorism? Why do so many Arab countries refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist?

The history clearly shows which side has been the most opposed to a peaceful two state solution.

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Does it ever occur to anyone that the terms of the "offer" (then or more recently) may not have been legitimate or balanced?
Well, what do you find illegitimate or unbalanced about the United Nations Partition plan of 1947? What do you find illegitimate or unbalanced about BILL CLINTON's peace plan in 2000?

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That the conditions of peace and an "independent" state of Palestine are on the unlilateral terms of Israel and in effect may actually require complete submission and dependence from Palestinians?
How could the United Nations peace plan of 1947 be considered the unilateral terms of Israel?

How could Bill Clintons peace plan of 2000 be considered the unilateral terms of Israel?
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:47 PM   #244
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Again, the British, League of Nations did not search the globe and decide on spot to put Israel. The desire to form Israel did not come from the League of Nations, or the British, but Jews living in Israel/Palestine upon the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. How can it be ok for citizens living in Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey to form those state, but its NOT ok for Jews living in Israel/Palestine to form a state of their own called Israel?
And once again, I never said they couldn't. I never said it wasn't okay, nor did anyone else. They can put one there all they wish, I really don't care. All I said was that it's odd. I didn't say whether it was good or bad, smart or dumb, just odd, given the population they'd be surrounded by. But if they were willing to take the risks involved with creating a state there, then hey, go for it.

And while the idea of a Jewish state, Arab state, and Christian state all cohabiting sounds absolutely lovely and really, in the utopian worldview, shouldn't be a problem, in the real world view...unfortunately, there is going to be severe conflict as a result. I fully agree the three religions should coexist and be allowed to all be within the same area-more education and exposure to others' faiths, thus leading to more understanding and less ignorance and intolerance. There's no reason they shouldn't all be able to share the landspace and go about their respective business together. Sadly, not everyone in this world shares my idealistic worldview, which sucks .

AliEnvy, nice post .

Angela
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:31 PM   #245
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a two-state solution would be a whole lot easier if the present Israeli government were to cease illegal settlement activity.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:10 PM   #246
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the settlements on Wast Bank territories with the resettlement of Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Africans, etc that claim to be Jewish.
and keep in mind that these immigrants are given cheap (or free? ) housing and given money to relocate there.


Well, these settlements on Palestinian land are far worse than any random rocket fired blindly out of Gaza,
these settlements are the greatest terror being committed in the area right now.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:33 PM   #247
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a two-state solution would be a whole lot easier if the present Israeli government were to cease illegal settlement activity.
I agree.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:35 PM   #248
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the settlements on Wast Bank territories with the resettlement of Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Africans, etc that claim to be Jewish.
and keep in mind that these immigrants are given cheap (or free? ) housing and given money to relocate there.


Well, these settlements on Palestinian land are far worse than any random rocket fired blindly out of Gaza,
these settlements are the greatest terror being committed in the area right now.
I agree its a big problem, and is definitely not in Israel's interest, but it is not the same thing as murder.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:37 PM   #249
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I agree.
I am trying to remember your opinion about what should be done with Jerusalem.

That seems to be a huge stumbling block for a final agreement.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:41 PM   #250
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I agree its a big problem, and is definitely not in Israel's interest, but it is not the same thing as murder.
really?

What would Israel do if Lebanon came into Israel proper and built a partican wall and loaded up that seized territory with settlements and tens? of thousands new settlers?
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:52 PM   #251
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And once again, I never said they couldn't. I never said it wasn't okay, nor did anyone else. They can put one there all they wish, I really don't care. All I said was that it's odd. I didn't say whether it was good or bad, smart or dumb, just odd, given the population they'd be surrounded by. But if they were willing to take the risks involved with creating a state there, then hey, go for it.



Angela
Well, why would that be odd or risky? Remember, there was little if any fighting among these groups while the Ottoman Empire owned the land. In addition, no matter where Jews live on this earth, they are always surrounded by populations that are NOT Jewish. Most importantly, the Jews who chose to form a state in Israel/Palestine after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, were doing so in area, that many of them had lived all their lives. In addition, most of the towns that they lived in were actually majority Jewish.

So, when you really think about it, it would have been ODD if they did not form a state there.


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And while the idea of a Jewish state, Arab state, and Christian state all cohabiting sounds absolutely lovely and really, in the utopian worldview, shouldn't be a problem, in the real world view...unfortunately, there is going to be severe conflict as a result. I fully agree the three religions should coexist and be allowed to all be within the same area-more education and exposure to others' faiths, thus leading to more understanding and less ignorance and intolerance. There's no reason they shouldn't all be able to share the landspace and go about their respective business together. Sadly, not everyone in this world shares my idealistic worldview, which sucks
Again, they were able to get along while the Ottoman Empire ruled the land, why does there have to be any sort of conflict when they form individual states on land that they already privately own? This was not some utopia were talking about, but the real world. The Ottoman Empire ruled the area for 400 years. The fact that there are Jews, Christians and Muslims living in the area already, and had been there for centuries, is simply a fact. If they can get along living under one state, the Ottoman Empire, there should be no problem getting along when they are seperated in multiple independent states.
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:03 PM   #252
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I am trying to remember your opinion about what should be done with Jerusalem.

That seems to be a huge stumbling block for a final agreement.
Well, I think there should be a deal where Israel gets East Jerusalem but must give up all other settlements on the West Bank, or they get to keep these settlements on the West Bank, but must give the Palestinians all of East Jerusalem. Or perhaps a combination of both. I think the huge benefits of a peaceful resolution by giving up much of East Jerusalem and much of the West Bank settlements outweigh the cost of withdrawing from them.

There is certainly no security advantage or security need for Israel to have East Jerusalem.
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:20 PM   #253
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really?

What would Israel do if Lebanon came into Israel proper and built a partican wall and loaded up that seized territory with settlements and tens? of thousands new settlers?
Well, first, Lebanon would be launching an unprovoked invasion of an internationally recognized independent state, Israel. As of today, there is no independent Palestinian State and there will not be one until a peace deal is signed where Israel's right to exist is recognized.

The reason that the West Bank and Gaza are occupied by Israel is because of the 1967 war and subsequent wars and attacks on Israel by Arab countries and Palestinians. The West Bank and Gaza would not be occupied today by Israel if the Arab's and Palestinians had not attempted to overrun Israel decades ago.

The Palestinians can finally get an independent state as well as the removal of Jewish settlements when they agree to a peace deal. Once Egypt agreed to a peace deal with Israel, Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai Peninsula and removed Jewish settlers from the Sinai peninsula.

Israel has to make sure that any deal it agrees to does not threaten its security and involves the recognition of Israel's right to exist within its current borders.

I don't agree with Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but its not murder and as we saw with Israel's peace deal with Egypt in 1979, any settlement can be removed.
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:50 PM   #254
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I wasn't trying to imply it should be anywhere else. I honestly don't know where else would be a good place to put Israel, and don't really care, 'cause as Irvine said, Israel's there, it's always going to be there, and that's that, and hooray for that, I'm certainly no advocate of suddenly up and moving that country now after all this time. I was simply agreeing that it is an odd spot for them to plant a country, that's all I meant. If they want to put Israel there, fine, go for it. It's just strange, the fact that people on both sides are so surprised at the reaction that came from that decision. Perhaps they weren't expecting it to get as violent and lengthy as it became, though, I dunno.

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Old 06-10-2010, 05:58 PM   #255
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Well, why would that be odd or risky? Remember, there was little if any fighting among these groups while the Ottoman Empire owned the land. In addition, no matter where Jews live on this earth, they are always surrounded by populations that are NOT Jewish. Most importantly, the Jews who chose to form a state in Israel/Palestine after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, were doing so in area, that many of them had lived all their lives. In addition, most of the towns that they lived in were actually majority Jewish.

So, when you really think about it, it would have been ODD if they did not form a state there.
*Sigh* It's odd and risky given the fact that the people who lived there already were protective of their land and because of the whole "holy land" deal. It may make sense to put a country there for those sorts of reasons, but they had to realize that there would be religious skirmishes and land skirmishes from people that were living in that area already, thus there was something of a risk. Whether or not this sort of thing would've happened had Israel been planted anywhere else, I don't know. Probably, I'm sure. But other areas of the world aren't laying claim to any "holy land". That area of the world is. Therefore, whatever happens there is likely to be a little bit more tense.

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Again, they were able to get along while the Ottoman Empire ruled the land, why does there have to be any sort of conflict when they form individual states on land that they already privately own?
I dunno, because throughout history all three religions have had their battles, perhaps? If there was peace during that time, then they were lucky, because history has shown that the three major religions have been fighting for a very, very long time.

And so they separate into individual states. So what? People are still greedy, sometimes their own land isn't enough after a while and they want more, and you can have your own private state and still have a beef with someone over religious stuff or ethnic stuff or whatever else it is they want to argue about.

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This was not some utopia were talking about, but the real world. The Ottoman Empire ruled the area for 400 years. The fact that there are Jews, Christians and Muslims living in the area already, and had been there for centuries, is simply a fact. If they can get along living under one state, the Ottoman Empire, there should be no problem getting along when they are seperated in multiple independent states.
I know it's a fact that they've all lived in the same area for eons. I'm not disagreeing on that, I never said they never did live in the same area. And you're right, there shouldn't be any problem whether they're separated or not-that's what I meant when I mentioned the utopian worldview vs. the real world view. But unfortunately, knowing how all three religions' extremists tend to operate nowadays, to expect there will not be any fighting is incredibly naive. I hope we can work with all three religions and get them to come together and respect each other and live in peace. I really do. And I want people to keep pushing that. But in the meantime, expect the fighting to continue.

Angela
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