Roadmap to HELL - One man caught on a barbed wire fence .... - Page 15 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-08-2010, 06:28 PM   #211
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
And her personal hatred of Reagan and Bush was equally obvious.
Along with a good portion of the country

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
My only point. Conservatives have known for decades she was a vile woman with a deep hatred for the state of Israel. Bienvenue to the rest of you.
You can't recognize racism or sexism, but you can recognize "deep hatred for the state of Israel from two comments".

You're awesome.
__________________

__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 09:14 PM   #212
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
Conservatives apparently easily confuse legitimate criticism of a country's actions in conflict with another peoples with anti-statism (here: anti-Israelism).
I don't consider Helen Thomas' statements to be "legitimate criticism." But what the hell do I know as increasingly more and more people around the world echo her words and thoughts.
__________________

__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 09:27 PM   #213
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Along with a good portion of the country



You can't recognize racism or sexism, but you can recognize "deep hatred for the state of Israel from two comments".

You're awesome.
Right. You're the one who claims your HateDoppler 3000 is so precise and accurate that you can clearly see hate, racism & bigotry in the hearts of all those that oppose same-sex marriage, open borders or Obamacare; yet completely miss the venom aimed at Israel (often from the front row of White House press briefings no less) from the mouth of Ms Thomas.

Might be time for a recalibration.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 09:38 PM   #214
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 12:16 AM
Well, I'm going to recuse myself from further discussion on this topic. Like Moonlit Angel, I knew (and know) virtually nothing about Helen Thomas.

So I can't with any real authority argue INDY's point about her supposed anti-Israel views.
__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 09:50 PM   #215
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 12:16 AM
no one -- but no one -- in here has defended her YouTube comment.

INDY, do you think it's possible to be an anti-Zionist and be a journalist?

also, what do you think of Mike Huckabee's calling for the ethnic cleansing (of Arabs) of the West Bank? he has a talk show on Fox and is a likely frontrunner for the GOP nomination in 2012. is this not an equivalent statement to Ms. Thomas'? why do conservatives admire, contribute to, and vote for a politician who supports ethnic cleansing?

Will Huckabee Pay A Price For Rejecting the Two-State Solution? | The American Prospect

will Huckabee apologize and resign as Thomas has?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 10:09 PM   #216
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,887
Local Time: 12:16 AM
My opinion of Ms. Thomas' journalism has not changed since her final outburst.
__________________
Bluer White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 10:19 PM   #217
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Right. You're the one who claims your HateDoppler 3000 is so precise and accurate that you can clearly see hate, racism & bigotry in the hearts of all those that oppose same-sex marriage, open borders or Obamacare; yet completely miss the venom aimed at Israel (often from the front row of White House press briefings no less) from the mouth of Ms Thomas.

Might be time for a recalibration.
I understand nuance. I could go through every sentence here and disect how you are wrong, i.e. I never equated opposing Obamacare to racism, but it wouldn't matter with you, your days of really wanting to engage have been gone for a long time.
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 10:37 PM   #218
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
no one -- but no one -- in here has defended her YouTube comment.
running a short clip does not really tell me anything

I almost believe this Rabi, took advantage to get a 'got cha' loop on her.

I posted a link to a more complete transcript in the other thread

she has no more bias than many that are pro-Israeli, but that bias would not be controversial in America
__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 11:23 PM   #219
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
INDY, do you think it's possible to be an anti-Zionist and be a journalist?
Sure, if they can separate personal beliefs from work. But did Helen do that? Here is her question to Robert Gibbs about the flotilla issue.

"The initial reaction to the flotilla massacre, deliberate massacre, an international crime, was pitiful. What do you mean you regret something that should be so strongly condemned, and if any other nation in the world had done it, we would have been up in arms? What is this ironclad relationship where a country that deliberately kills people... and boycotts every aid and abet… the boycott?"

Fair, tough journalism or interjecting of personal beliefs.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 11:33 PM   #220
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:16 PM
Quote:
What is this ironclad relationship where a country that deliberately kills people... and boycotts every aid and abet… the boycott?"
What makes Helen stand out, is that the American Press corp pretty much has a bias 'in favor' of Israel.

Israel committed 'war crimes' (the facts are irrefutable) with their war on Gaza.
__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2010, 03:07 PM   #221
Refugee
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Less than 7% of the land by 1947. For the record.
In 1947, 9% of the land was owned by Jews, 3% by Arabs who became Israeli citizens, and 18% by Arabs who either left before the 1948 war or after. The other 70% of the land was NOT privately owned by anyone. It belonged to the British Mandatory government and prior to that belonged to the government of the Ottoman Empire.

In 1947 the Arab population in Israel/Palestine numbered, 1,200,000. The Jewish figure at the time was 600,000. A combined figure of 1.8 million, much less than the nearly 12 million Jews and Arabs that live in Israel/Palestine today.

The Jews never had a chance of reaching a majority in the country given the restrictive immigration policy of the British. By contrast, the Arabs were free to come - and thousands did - to take advantage of the rapid development stimulated by area's owned by Jews. The Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them in the UN Partition Plan of 1947, as well as the majority in Jerusalem that was to be a United Nations run city under the UN Partition Plan.
__________________
Strongbow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2010, 03:35 PM   #222
Refugee
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 05:16 AM
Here are some interesting public comments by Arab officials on the issue of peace with Israel in 1947/1948:

"Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world"
Syrian delegage, Faris el-Khouri, New York Times, February 19, 1947



"The Arab world is not in a compromising mood. It's likely, Mr. Horowitz, that your plan is rational and logical, but the fate of nations is not decided by rational logic. Nations never concede; they fight. You won't get anything by peaceful means or compromise. You can, perhaps, get something, but only by the force of your arms. We shall try to defeat you. I'm not sure we'll succeed, but we'll try. We were able to drive out the Crusaders, but on the other hand we lost Spain and Persia. It may be that we shall lose Palestine. But its too late to talk of peaceful solutions."
Arab League Secretary Azzam Pasha, September 16, 1947

"All our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine." Transjordan's King Abdullah, April 26, 1948

"The representitives of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arab's had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight"
Jamal Husseini before the Security Council, April 16, 1948


"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."
Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League, May 15, 1948
__________________
Strongbow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2010, 06:39 PM   #223
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 12:16 AM
here's a thoughtful post that i enjoyed reading, it tackles hard, almost unmentionable questions:


Quote:
And being critical of Israel does not mean you're an anti-Zionist. But a reader did note this 2006 column by Richard Cohen. Money quote:

Quote:
The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.
I was thinking recently how a Burkean could defend the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948. I'm not sure it's possible - which may say more about the limits of Burkean conservatism than Zionism. Although Jews obviously dwelled in Palestine for as long as anyone, their numbers were few in recent centuries until the grand experiment. Zionism began as an idea, another nineteenth century "ism", and was, like most radical ideas, controversial among Jews and Gentiles everywhere in its inception and since. It was radically utopian, an almost text book example of imposing an abstract concept - a settled Jewish nation after so long a diaspora - on a land already embedded with an existing geographic, demographic, religious and cultural reality.

Maybe you could see the emergence of Israel as a Burkean consequence of the Holocaust. But most Zionists are offended by this idea, and it seems to me that this makes sense as a Burkean defense of Israel for Europeans, but has little resonance for Jewish Palestinians, Arab Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Persians, Kurds, and others more directly affected. I remain deeply committed to the idea of Israel, largely because the Shoah proved beyond any doubt that there was no security for Jews as a nation without a homeland. But the Burkean in me cries out prudentially against trying to coerce history - and tradition and settled populations - in this radical and sudden way.

The lesson of this, it seems to me, is not, however, that Israel should be abandoned. The lesson is that its leaders and people need to be sensitive to history, not embittered by it, however justified the embitterment might be. A Burkean could just about defend the creation and endurance of Israel (ending it now would be an even greater rupture than its beginning) but he should also be utterly unsurprised by reaction, resistance and resentment. Conservatives of all people should foresee this. When the lives and homes of hundreds of thousands are permanently and suddenly altered without their permission and against their religious beliefs, they will react. When families are still turfed out of their homes to make way for strangers of a different religious background, rage is a perfectly defensible, and rational, response. History matters, as Cohen explained:

Quote:
This is why the Israeli-Arab war, now transformed into the Israeli-Muslim war (Iran is not an Arab state), persists and widens. It is why the conflict mutates and festers. It is why Israel is now fighting an organization, Hezbollah, that did not exist 30 years ago and why Hezbollah is being supported by a nation, Iran, that was once a tacit ally of Israel's. The underlying, subterranean hatred of the Jewish state in the Islamic world just keeps bubbling to the surface. The leaders of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and some other Arab countries may condemn Hezbollah, but I doubt the proverbial man in their street shares that view.
My additional point would be that this resistance to the other encroaching on sacred ground is not a unique feature of the Arab psyche. (It is, however, horribly compounded by Islam's fetish for religious exclusivity on its own territory. This insistence on a religious monopoly on actual regions is much more repellent, it seems to me, than the Jewish people's search for a small place of their own around their historic capital. Israel, after all, does not ban Islam; Saudi Arabia bans Judaism. Between the relative land-claims of Judaism and the totalist land-claims of Islam, I'm with the Jews, both proportionally and as a matter of simple equity.)

But it is prudentially idiotic for Israel to act as if Arab resentment has no legitimacy or no justification. It is tone-deaf to create a Jewish state in the middle of the Middle East and then behave as if it had been there for ever. Israel is not France or Egypt, or even Canada. It is a young and contested idea on ancient, contested land, whose original inhabitants did not all just disappear in a biological holocaust, as in America.

It does not seem to me therefore nuts to urge a certain respect and tact from Israel toward its neighbors and the populations it displaced - even when it is not reciprocated. I'm not going to go into the long and awful history of the way in which the Arab world has treated Israel from the get-go, but I am saying that to add to the original proposition an ongoing, unstoppable colonization of a further swathe of land won in wartime is obviously against the interests of the Jewish state, and compounds and deepens the resentment from 1948 and 1967 and 1974. Not to see this context, indeed to claim that any and all grievances against Israel's existence - and, much more significantly, ongoing expansion - are entirely a function of Jew-hatred is to lose any nuance in diplomacy or human relations.

That's where the Israelis have lost me and some others. It was revealed first by how petulantly even the Kadima-led government responded to Obama's election. The Gaza war, conceptually defensible, was practically gruesome (Hamas and Israel share that blame), but the unapologetic, almost triumphalist and revengeful manner in which it was conducted and defended was and is shocking, as is the contempt for the wounded and dead on the Mavi Marmara. When your heart is hardened against the corpses of children buried in rubble, it is hardened too much. And the job of a real friend is to point this out, not to enable it.

Keep holding the mirror, Mr president.

Was Israel A Mistake? - The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2010, 06:55 PM   #224
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
Here are some interesting public comments by in 1947/1948:
you have referred to 1947several times as an example of why Israel exist today or the justification for how and where, Israel exist today.

OK, so going by your example or suggestion,
then 1947 should be where we go for the final boundaries.

Here you go.



more than generous, since by your information 600,000 Jewish inhabitants and 1200000 Palestinians at that time.

lets use the 1947 standard you keep bringing up, and allow Palestinians to control/govern all that territory. Of course Jews can stay and pay rent and live under the same deal Israeli Arabs have enjoyed all these years.
__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2010, 07:53 PM   #225
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,272
Local Time: 11:16 PM
Thank you for that article, Irvine. That's exactly what I've thought before, too-it does seem odd that of all the places in the world to put Israel, we pick an Arab-heavy part. How did people not expect some conflict and complication would arise from that decision?

Also...

Quote:
Jewish Palestinians
I'm glad this sort of thing was pointed out, as it makes for the argument that there are all sorts of people living in Palestine (as well as Israel). The main battle may be between two particular groups, but there are people of all backgrounds in both areas getting caught up in the crossfire, and I think it'd do the world well to realize and remember this.

Angela
__________________

__________________
Moonlit_Angel is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who to "Liberate" Next? melon Free Your Mind Archive 95 05-01-2003 04:55 PM
Why I Would Follow Bono Into Hell...... U2Soar The Goal Is Soul 10 10-10-2002 03:41 PM
The MacPhisto Society, Revisited Echo PLEBA Archive 15 11-26-2001 03:01 AM
Hinduism v. Christianity anitram Free Your Mind Archive 26 10-27-2001 09:28 AM
On Hell and Fundamentalism melon Free Your Mind Archive 1 10-07-2001 10:37 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com