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Old 06-04-2010, 10:59 PM   #151
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There is a logical connection between Christianity and Queerphobia that doesn't exist for atheism. For that matter there is a logical connection between the religious beliefs of different parties in the Middle East and the endless potential for violence, a poster in this thread justified a land-grab on the basis of scripture for goodness sake.
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:00 PM   #152
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Israel has a right to defend itself, that right does not extend to amounting an illegal blockade and collective punishment on the Gazans and it certainly does not extend to boarding a ship in international water and shooting civilians in the head and multiple times from close range.
So your saying that Israel has no right to intercept ships that could be carrying weapons to Gaza that will be used to kill Israely citizens?

So, what can Israel do to defend itself from the weapons being smuggled into Gaza from Iran and other places?

What precisely would you do if you were in charge of protecting Israel and its citizens from the harm this smuggled material is causing? What would you direct the IDF to do, TODAY, given the situation?
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:02 PM   #153
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There is a logical connection between Christian Queer-phobia and the religion that you can't make for atheism.

For that matter there is a logical connection between the religious beliefs of different parties in the Middle East and the endless potential for violence, a poster in this thread justified a land-grab on the basis of scripture.
Thats wonderful, but what I stated is still a FACT.
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:09 PM   #154
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neither did someone else. because he's clearly trying to make the argument about an off handed remark rather than about the actual issue, which is that America's unblinking backing of Israel is due less to AIPAC money and more to do with evangelical Christian money.
Really? So I guess the unblinking backing of Israel ended with election of Barack Obama? Democratically controlled congress and White House. They certainly don't get or need the support or money of evangelical christians.
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:19 AM   #155
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So your saying that Israel has no right to intercept ships that could be carrying weapons to Gaza that will be used to kill Israely citizens?

So, what can Israel do to defend itself from the weapons being smuggled into Gaza from Iran and other places?

What precisely would you do if you were in charge of protecting Israel and its citizens from the harm this smuggled material is causing? What would you direct the IDF to do, TODAY, given the situation?
They have no legal right to stop ships in international waters and if the absence of an international armed conflict Israel has no right to stop ships entering Gaza's waters (to which Israel should have no control). If Israels to announce an International Armed Conflict against Gaza then it should feel free, but if it does it will have to start meeting it's international responsibilities vis a vis prisoners and to the civilian population.

What should be the limit of Israels ability to 'protect' itself against ineffective rockets? Should they be allowed to use nukes to protect themselves against rockets which have a launch to kill ratio of 45:1 ? The current Israeli response is illegal and disproportionate and forms collective punishment. I don't see what a4 paper, crayons and spices have to do with rocket building yet these are also banned from entering Gaza what's your opinion on that. What threat to Israel's security are spices and paper?
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:33 PM   #156
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Israeli Navy seizes aid boat headed for Gaza - CNN.com
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:29 PM   #157
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Since it hasn't come up in here yet...

Should Helen Thomas finally be retired from her seat in the WH press room?
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:33 PM   #158
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They have no legal right to stop ships in international waters and if the absence of an international armed conflict Israel has no right to stop ships entering Gaza's waters (to which Israel should have no control). If Israels to announce an International Armed Conflict against Gaza then it should feel free, but if it does it will have to start meeting it's international responsibilities vis a vis prisoners and to the civilian population.

What should be the limit of Israels ability to 'protect' itself against ineffective rockets? Should they be allowed to use nukes to protect themselves against rockets which have a launch to kill ratio of 45:1 ? The current Israeli response is illegal and disproportionate and forms collective punishment. I don't see what a4 paper, crayons and spices have to do with rocket building yet these are also banned from entering Gaza what's your opinion on that. What threat to Israel's security are spices and paper?
I'll ask the questions again since you failed to DIRECTLY answer them:

So your saying that Israel has no right to intercept ships that could be carrying weapons to Gaza that will be used to kill Israely citizens?

So, what can Israel do to defend itself from the weapons being smuggled into Gaza from Iran and other places?

What precisely would you do if you were in charge of protecting Israel and its citizens from the harm this smuggled material is causing? What would you direct the IDF to do, TODAY, given the situation?
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:44 PM   #159
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Since it hasn't come up in here yet...

Should Helen Thomas finally be retired from her seat in the WH press room?
For making some statements that some may not agree with?

Hasn't she made a career of that?
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:46 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by popshopper View Post

What should be the limit of Israels ability to 'protect' itself against ineffective rockets?
If the rockets were ineffective, they would not be killing anyone. In addition, the issue goes beyond simply rockets. Hand guns, machine guns, RPG's, IED's, sucide explosive belts.

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Should they be allowed to use nukes to protect themselves against rockets which have a launch to kill ratio of 45:1 ?
Has Israel ever used nuclear weapons or other WMD in a conflict? Think about it.


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The current Israeli response is illegal and disproportionate and forms collective punishment.
I doubt that there is an Israeli response that you would consider to be legal, especially since your unwilling to answer basic questions about how Israel should defend itself.

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I don't see what a4 paper, crayons and spices have to do with rocket building yet these are also banned from entering Gaza what's your opinion on that. What threat to Israel's security are spices and paper?
I don't consider that a threat or agree with doing that, but thats not the main issue.

The main issue is that TERRORIST in Gaza are receiving weapons from Iran and other places that are KILLING Israeli citizens.

Do you think Israel has a right to prevent weapons from reaching terrorist in Gaza that are used to kill Israeli citizens? How would you PREVENT Israeli citizens from being killed by such weapons?
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Old 06-05-2010, 07:03 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
I'll ask the questions again since you failed to DIRECTLY answer them:

So your saying that Israel has no right to intercept ships that could be carrying weapons to Gaza that will be used to kill Israely citizens?

So, what can Israel do to defend itself from the weapons being smuggled into Gaza from Iran and other places?

What precisely would you do if you were in charge of protecting Israel and its citizens from the harm this smuggled material is causing? What would you direct the IDF to do, TODAY, given the situation?
I'll say it again. Israel has no legal right to stop ships in international water, as it's 'blockade' can only be legal in the event of an International Armed Conflict with Gaza. It's really that simple. I don't believe it has a moral right to collectively punish the Gazan's by banning:

sage
cardamom
cumin
coriander
ginger
jam
halva
vinegar
nutmeg
chocolate
fruit preserves
seeds and nuts
biscuits and sweets
potato chips
gas for soft drinks
dried fruit
fresh meat
plaster
tar
wood for construction
cement
iron
glucose
industrial salt
plastic/glass/metal containers
industrial margarine
tarpaulin sheets for huts
fabric (for clothing)
flavor and smell enhancers
fishing rods
various fishing nets
buoys
ropes for fishing
nylon nets for greenhouses
hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries
spare parts for tractors
dairies for cowsheds
irrigation pipe systems
ropes to tie greenhouses
planters for saplings
heaters for chicken farms
musical instruments
size A4 paper
writing implements
notebooks
newspapers
toys
razors
sewing machines and spare parts
heaters
horses
donkeys
goats
cattle
chicks

Almost none of these items offer any threat to Israel. So why ban them if not to collectively punish the Gazans?

Israel is under absolutely no real material threat from Hamas, the possible damage they could render on Israel is minuscule. Israel's actions are disproportionate to the threat they face from the Quassam rockets. The IDF are one of the best equipped standing armies in the world and the continued existence of Israel is under no threat from any weapons smuggled in from Iran. If Israel wants to improve its security situation the only long term way is to actually try negotiating in with Hamas. Both sides have unacceptable positions enshrined in their political parties charters. Punishing the Gazan's into voting out Hamas isn't the way to do it because simply all they are doing is fostering a bunker mentality.

If I were Israel I'd let the blockade down on the proviso of talks starting, back off from air raid for a month or so and see what happens. If the rocket attacks diminish (and they are already greatly diminished from 2008 levels). Don't forget that the previous ceasefire in 2008 almost completely stopped (rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November) rocket attacks until Israel breached the ceasefire on the 4th of November by conducting a raid into Gaza. The blockade itself has not managed to get the rocket attacks down to the same level they were during the 2008 ceasefire so raiding ships and killing folk doesn't really seem to be the best approach to Israeli security now does it?

Don't get me wrong there are a number of problems with this approach, one involves both sides showing a bit of trust and two Hamas couldn't control all the other extremists groups in the previous ceasefire (hence why some rockets continued to fire).

Make no mistake if the reports from Turkey are true (that the Turkish Prime Minister is going to be on the next Flotilla, backed by a couple of Turkish destroyers) then the blockade is effectively over. So mister bigshot what should the IDF do next? Glass Gaza?
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:15 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by popshopper View Post

Israel is under absolutely no real material threat from Hamas, the possible damage they could render on Israel is minuscule.
Any weapons or groups that murder the citizens of another country obviously pose a threat to that country.

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Israel's actions are disproportionate to the threat they face from the Quassam rockets.
As long as weapons in the hands of Humas continue to murder Israeli citizens, Israel's actions to interdict the smuggling of any such weapons are not at all disportionate.

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The IDF are one of the best equipped standing armies in the world and the continued existence of Israel is under no threat from any weapons smuggled in from Iran.
No one has said that the continued existence of Israel is under threat by weapons sent into Gaza, just the lives of Israeli citizens.

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If Israel wants to improve its security situation the only long term way is to actually try negotiating in with Hamas.
How do you negotiate with someone who's number 1 goal, who's reason for existence is the total destruction of your country?

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Both sides have unacceptable positions enshrined in their political parties charters.
The two are not comparable. Israel has accepted peace plans in the past that would allow gaza to become apart of an independent state. Humas's #1 goal again is to destroy Israel.

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Punishing the Gazan's into voting out Hamas isn't the way to do it because simply all they are doing is fostering a bunker mentality.
I agree with that, but its nothing compared to Humas which actively targets and tries to murder innocent Israeli civilians. Its rather obvious which party is showing restraint and being reasonable in terms of resolving the conflict.

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If I were Israel I'd let the blockade down on the proviso of talks starting, back off from air raid for a month or so and see what happens. If the rocket attacks diminish (and they are already greatly diminished from 2008 levels). Don't forget that the previous ceasefire in 2008 almost completely stopped (rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November) rocket attacks until Israel breached the ceasefire on the 4th of November by conducting a raid into Gaza. The blockade itself has not managed to get the rocket attacks down to the same level they were during the 2008 ceasefire so raiding ships and killing folk doesn't really seem to be the best approach to Israeli security now does it?
The interesting thing to note here is that a ceacefire with Humas is not actually the true definition of a ceacefire. Yes, there is a ceacefire, but were comparing the number of rockets coming over DURING the ceacefire to now.

Its also a well known fact that ceacefires are used by organizations like Humas and Hezbollah to re-stock, train, and refit.


Anyways, doing nothing from a military standpoint and just letting any type of weapons flow to what is a terrorist organization that murders your citizens is something that no sensible leader who cares about the security of their country would do. The fact that the so called ceacefire does not actually stop the attacks highlights the futility of dealing with Humas diplomatically.

Quote:
Make no mistake if the reports from Turkey are true (that the Turkish Prime Minister is going to be on the next Flotilla, backed by a couple of Turkish destroyers) then the blockade is effectively over. So mister bigshot what should the IDF do next? Glass Gaza?
Mister Bigshot?
A foolish move by Turkey if they really care about the lives of people in Gaza and Israel. Preventing Israel from intercepting weapons going into Gaza will mean an increase in the means of Humas to murder Israeli citizens. This will force Israel to engage in other military options that will increase the loss of life for Palestinians living in Gaza.



What would you direct the IDF to do to prevent the murder of Israeli citizens if a new ceacefire did not lead to a significant decrease in the number rockets, or the ceacefire eventually collapsed. Say negotiations or a ceacefire are not possible, as commander of the IDF, what actions would you take to defend Israeli citizens from being murdered by weapons shipped into Gaza?
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:49 PM   #163
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Every few years, Israel gets involved in another conflict or atrocity and the predictable chorus of debate ensues. Few conflicts create such argument and division. And it is quite probable that among those sympathetic to the Israeli position will be many Westerners, like myself, who have visited Israel and experienced the kibbutz way of life.
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As someone who has visited Israel frequently and who spent a formative six months on a kibbutz at the age of 19, all of this saddens me. For despite the conflict, there is something magical about this tiny state, created by the Jewish immigrants of over 120 countries and built on the beautiful desert of their biblical homeland.
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The kibbutzniks are generally peacenik in outlook, although they are also over-represented in the elites of the army and air force. This reflects the high level of education on the kibbutz and its pioneering can-do spirit.

In recent years, I was shocked when I saw on the news that the towns nearest my kibbutz, Bet Shean and Afula, were attacked by gunmen and suicide bombers. In the early 1980s, the thought of such incursions was remote. But there was still a smouldering resentment in the Arab villages.

What a pity the Israelis didn't address all this then, rather than let it build up. When I think of old people on the kibbutz, the pioneers who came from Vienna and Warsaw, I am almost relieved that many of them are not around to see the impasses that have developed.

My love for Israel -- and why I still believe that peace will win in the end - Lifestyle, Frontpage - Independent.ie
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Old 06-06-2010, 01:59 AM   #164
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different thread, same old same old.

someone has to be all right or all wrong. it's the height of immaturity and insecurity.
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Old 06-06-2010, 03:46 AM   #165
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Dear Friends,

Wow...I haven't been here for a few days and this thread has certainly grown into a very intense and friendly discussion.

Firstly, I really want to express my appreciation to all of you for all of your comments pro and con. It's so great to be able to have a free exchange of ideas on such a volatile issue.

During the day I'll be wading through all the comments and answering any comments addressed to me.

Again, I'm not assuming any official position of spokesperson for the Israeli government, but, as someone who lives here, I do feel that it is my duty as an Israel citizen to give you the truth of what has been going on here so you get the whole story and not just one side.

Have a great day and see you soon.
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