RI School Bans Father Daughter Dances

[Liesje]

People just need to do what makes sense for them and not be so concerned with what other people do or don't do (that goes both ways).

 

[maycocksean]

Anybody actually interested in hearing a different point of view on this?

 

[Pearl]

From what I know about you, Sean, you wouldn't be so harsh and judgmental as some of the people we are complaining about here. So fire away...

 

[maycocksean]

Truth be told, I have no judgments.

There are choices that I've made in my life that make me a bit. . .unusual. . .but I'm okay with that. I understand what I've "missed out" on but for me that doesn't outweigh what I feel I've gained. But I don't think less of anyone who made a different choice.

That said, as a person who made the choice so many people apparently find virtually insane, I do feel a teeny bit judged myself.

I'd be happy to share my perspective but I don't know that I'd bother unless I felt that people were really interested in hearing it.

 

[Pearl]

Truth be told, I have no judgments.

There are choices that I've made in my life that make me a bit. . .unusual. . .but I'm okay with that. I understand what I've "missed out" on but for me that doesn't outweigh what I feel I've gained. But I don't think less of anyone who made a different choice.

That said, as a person who made the choice so many people apparently find virtually insane, I do feel a teeny bit judged myself.

I'd be happy to share my perspective but I don't know that I'd bother unless I felt that people were really interested in hearing it.

I don't judge people who choose to abstain from sex until marriage. That is their decision, their lives, their bodies, their sexuality. Let them be.

What I don't like is how some of these people make no secret that they feel anyone who does not save sex for marriage is promiscuous, lacks self-respect, is miserable and will never find happiness in their lives. I am not having one-night stands every weekend (I actually could never do one-night stands, for the record), I am not miserable and I have decent self-esteem. I also know plenty of people who were having sex before marriage with people they did not marry, and they are happily married to the people who don't mind about their past.

Like I've already said in this thread, there is a lot of gray in this issue that some abstinence-only people fail to realize. That is my only problem.

 

[maycocksean]

I don't judge people who choose to abstain from sex until marriage. That is their decision, their lives, their bodies, their sexuality. Let them be.

What I don't like is how some of these people make no secret that they feel anyone who does not save sex for marriage is promiscuous, lacks self-respect, is miserable and will never find happiness in their lives. I am not having one-night stands every weekend (I actually could never do one-night stands, for the record), I am not miserable and I have decent self-esteem. I also know plenty of people who were having sex before marriage with people they did not marry, and they are happily married to the people who don't mind about their past.

Like I've already said in this thread, there is a lot of gray in this issue that some abstinence-only people fail to realize. That is my only problem.

I agree. It's unfortunate that some people feel that their choices/viewpoint in life are only valid to the extent that they can prove the invalidity of others choices/viewpoints.

That said I sometimes also get the sense that it's no longer possible to suggest that one might have a viewpoint/choice that might be beneficial for people in general than just the individual without it being cast as a judgment and offense. I happen to believe that the choices I've made are good choices in general, not just for me personally. But that doesn't translate into looking down on or judging other people. If there is no middle ground--if all we have is either "I'm right, happy, and enlightened and you are wrong, miserable, and benighted" or "My choice is right for me only, I am forbidden from suggesting that anything can be generalized to most/all people" then I think we all lose out.

 

[Liesje]

What I don't like is how some of these people make no secret that they feel anyone who does not save sex for marriage is promiscuous, lacks self-respect, is miserable and will never find happiness in their lives.

I think that the amount of people who really feel this way is in the minority. I have grown up and work in a pretty conservative Christian community and you won't find many people age 50 or under that still adhere to this line of thinking, and generally the people that do have issues that go way beyond how they feel about pre-marrital sex!

 

[Pearl]

I think that the amount of people who really feel this way is in the minority. I have grown up and work in a pretty conservative Christian community and you won't find many people age 50 or under that still adhere to this line of thinking, and generally the people that do have issues that go way beyond how they feel about pre-marrital sex!

If they are in the minority, then that's great. And I agree, anyone who does think like that does have issues, more like a good case of being ignorant and self-centered.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I agree. It's unfortunate that some people feel that their choices/viewpoint in life are only valid to the extent that they can prove the invalidity of others choices/viewpoints.

Yep. I'd like to hear what you have to say, no judgment from me.

 

[anitram]

That said I sometimes also get the sense that it's no longer possible to suggest that one might have a viewpoint/choice that might be beneficial for people in general than just the individual without it being cast as a judgment and offense. I happen to believe that the choices I've made are good choices in general, not just for me personally.

I think it depends largely on the topic that we're discussing. It's very easy to say that generally speaking, certain things are better for most people (like being honest or not smoking, for example). But when you get to things which are essentially judgment calls or subjective calls without a quantifiable measuring stick, it gets a lot more difficult.

 

[Irvine511]

i think there are many reasons to abstain from sex before marriage especially if one holds that as a value -- religious or otherwise. in the same way that some people choose to be vegetarian or vegan.

i don't think, however, that abstinence should be recommended as a way to avoid unwanted pregnancy or STDs. as that doesn't work.

Teen births map shows conservative states have most teen moms. - Slate Magazine

fear is not a reason to wait until marriage.

i'm sure Sean, and others, have lots of reasons that have nothing to do with fear. and that, to me, is a much more compelling reason. do it because you want to, not because you're scared not to.

 

[corianderstem]

I completely agree with anitram.

But I can understand how someone would think that saving one's self for marriage is better for people/society in general, and to think so is not necessarily offensive and judgmental. If you're addressing a specific person and basically telling them "I don't think the way you live your life is okay because that's not how I live my life," well, that's offensive and judgmental because it's none of your business.

And I'd say if you're trying to instill these values into your children but make it so hard-line (aka singing a pledge of purity or somesuch thing) that they will feel like a crushing failure if they do not live up to such standards, I think that's not okay. Virginity is not the end-all, be-all of a woman's (or a man's, but no one ever talks about the men in these scenarios, Brothers Jonai aside) worth.

 

[corianderstem]

(I'm not sure how coherent my point is in that post. I hope I make a lick of sense. )

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Made sense to me, Cori . I fully agree with you.

And yeah, Sean, share away, I'm definitely interested to hear your thoughts on the topic.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I'm totally going to judge you, Sean. Go ahead

 

[corianderstem]

(aka singing a pledge of purity or somesuch thing)

Well, this of course should say "signing." Although if someone wants to sing a pledge of purity .....

 

[digitize]

Well, this of course should say "signing." Although if someone wants to sing a pledge of purity .....

Ladies and gentlemen, we have our newest off-Broadway musical

 

[maycocksean]

I think it depends largely on the topic that we're discussing. It's very easy to say that generally speaking, certain things are better for most people (like being honest or not smoking, for example). But when you get to things which are essentially judgment calls or subjective calls without a quantifiable measuring stick, it gets a lot more difficult.

I see your point. But I also think that areas like honesty or not smoking don't generate a whole lot of discussion since the argument is so clear. It's exactly those less quantifiable areas where differing viewpoints matter. I would agree though that taking a harsh absolute stance in these less quantifiable areas is not productive.

i think there are many reasons to abstain from sex before marriage especially if one holds that as a value -- religious or otherwise. in the same way that some people choose to be vegetarian or vegan.

i don't think, however, that abstinence should be recommended as a way to avoid unwanted pregnancy or STDs. as that doesn't work.

Teen births map shows conservative states have most teen moms. - Slate Magazine

fear is not a reason to wait until marriage.

i'm sure Sean, and others, have lots of reasons that have nothing to do with fear. and that, to me, is a much more compelling reason. do it because you want to, not because you're scared not to.

I agree wholeheartedly with all of the above.

I completely agree with anitram.

But I can understand how someone would think that saving one's self for marriage is better for people/society in general, and to think so is not necessarily offensive and judgmental. If you're addressing a specific person and basically telling them "I don't think the way you live your life is okay because that's not how I live my life," well, that's offensive and judgmental because it's none of your business.

And I'd say if you're trying to instill these values into your children but make it so hard-line (aka singing a pledge of purity or somesuch thing) that they will feel like a crushing failure if they do not live up to such standards, I think that's not okay. Virginity is not the end-all, be-all of a woman's (or a man's, but no one ever talks about the men in these scenarios, Brothers Jonai aside) worth.

Agree also with this. I never had any of this kind intense pressure growing up, even though I was taught at home, in school, and at church that saving sex til marriage was the right thing to do.

I'm totally going to judge you, Sean. Go ahead

Bring it.




Okay, so here's a different point of view. Apologies in advance if anyone finds anything to be TMI. I'm generally pretty open about myself, so it doesn't feel like the great personal revelation to me that it might to some other people.

I chose to wait until marriage to have sex and the only person I've ever been with is my wife. I feel good about the decision I made and I don't feel like it's given me an unhealthy view of sexuality as a result. I have a very healthy sex life (at least I think so. . .since one doesn't know what goes on behind everyone else's closed doors, and I don't have any other personal experiences to compare against I suppose I can't say for sure but I certainly feel good about where we're at), and have found that it's only gotten better with time (We just celebrated our 15th anniversary this past July).

My wife was also a virgin when we got married, but to be honest the fact that she was was not important to me. I did not feel that I needed to have a "virgin bride" and I know I would have married her even if she had been with someone else before I came along. (I do think, if she had already had sex, that there might have been more anxiety on my part maybe in the early years of our marriage though, where I might have been wondering how I "measured" up to the guys in her past).

The reason why I chose to wait was mainly because I truly believed it was the right thing to do and would result in greater net happiness and peace of mind for myself. Of course I was raised to believe this, but then so were my siblings, cousins, and all of my friends who were all brought up in the same very conservative religious denomination. Most of them chose to discard that belief (in fact, I'm the only one in my generation in my family that actually waited until marriage). Again I have no judgments about their moral worth in making that decision. I tend to feel that many conservative Christians make too big a deal out of pre-marital sex. I don't know that there is really a strong Biblical case against it (which in our faith tradition is a BIG deal, I know most of you wouldn't care much about that aspect, but it's important to mention is it is a part of my worldview). I see it kind of like alcohol (another taboo in our faith that a lot of people have dispensed with). I think abstaining is a better choice, but it's not the end of the world if you don't.

In terms of why I feel waiting was a better choice for me and why I would recommend it to my sons, my students, and whoever is because I believe that sex is best experienced in a committed long-term relationship, and the longer and more committed the relationship the better. And of course the longest and most committed relationship is marriage. I've always felt very safe and unguarded in my sexual experiences. Neither my wife or I have experienced a lot of the anxieties and insecurities that we hear about on TV and the movies. There's not a lot of pressure to "perform" or live up to past experiences with other people. I've never felt like I had to worry about things like "size" issues and things like that. When we first got married, I guess you could say we weren't very "good at it"--as we were both novices, and I remember thinking in the first couple of years "Is this really it? Is this what all the fuss is about?" Not that it was horrible or anything but it wasn't quite the mind blowing experience I'd built up in my head. But there was no pressure. With practice things got much better and mind blowing arrived around about year three, I think, maybe four? At any rate I feel lucky to have been able to have that learning curve with someone that I loved, trusted, and knew would be there for me rather than say, a regrettable clumsy experience with a girl when I was sixteen (though as a sixteen year old I concede such a regrettable clumsy experience sounded very, very appealing).

That's just one reason. There are others but I guess this is a good starting point for discussion.

Do I feel like I missed out in some respects but having sex with only one woman? Sure. I have what I suppose is a natural curiosity about what it might be like to be with other women. But then I imagine that would be there even if I had been more sexually experienced. Perhaps it would have even been heightened, I don't know.

I think there are some choices in life that most people make as a "given." They accept both the positive and negative consequences of those choices as a just a part of life. What I suppose I advocate is taking a step back and saying, "Wait a second, is this really a given. Or might I find making a different choice- one that granted, might feel weird at first--more personally rewarding." I'm advocating a cost-benefit analysis in areas where maybe they aren't usually applied.

BTW, if you're interested in a secular perspective on sex and marriage I highly recommend David Schnark's Passionate Marriage. It doesn't advocate abstinence outside of marriage as far as I can tell, but it is a fascinating perspective on the "long-game" view of sex. To hear him tell it, it takes like 20 years together before you get really good at it (I'm oversimplifying and exaggerating of course). I would recommend it to anyone in a long-term committed relationship.

 

[corianderstem]

Geez, that's all just so offensive.

KIDDING.

A lovely post.