Reporter and Cameraman Murdered on Live TV

[bono_212]

I think it's very significant that your first response was, 'won't anyone think of the guns?' first.

 

[Irvine511]

Nobody in this conversation. It's a convenient strawman.

I'd love to effectively ban guns.

Australia and Scotland essentially did just that.

I blame the NRA -- a terrorist organization that has caused the death of more Americans than ISIS or AQ could ever dream of -- and ordinary gun owners for preventing such a thing from ever occurring in this country.

I do blame gun owners. More guns, more gun crimes. You are no better than someone who buys heroin or meth or cocaine -- you are supporting an industry of mass death. And it's your insistence on "rights" and willingness to protect this misunderstood interpretation of the Constitution that has created a country where mass shootings are commonplace.

 

[LemonMelon]

That was only one small piece of what I said. But regardless, I added it because that is what it seems Irvine would like to see.

It's actually a very important part of what you said (that accounted for 2 of 6 paragraphs in the post) because it underlines that we're not having the same conversation. We're all in agreement that taking away every gun cold turkey is a pipe dream at this stage and would lead to some very serious problems and that the issue is cultural and systemic.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but there's something very defensive about the post too, which is understandable considering you took personal offense to Irvine's post. But as you said, it's time to set the bullshit aside and find common ground. There's a problem. The vast majority agree on that. Ignoring the fringe idiots on either side, let's figure this out. Because what's really disgusting is that this is treated as a partisan issue.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

No, my first response was outrage of being blamed for this tragedy. And why do I need to repeat what everyone else is saying about how horrible and senseless this was? I'm just trying to add another perspective to the conversation here. I certainly respect other people's opinions so long as they respect mine.

It's actually a very important part of what you said (that accounted for 2 of 6 paragraphs in the post) because it underlines that we're not having the same conversation. The people you speak of don't exist in this thread. We're all in agreement that taking away every gun cold turkey would lead to some very serious problems and that the issue is cultural and systemic

I was directly responding to Irvine, who is indeed a part of this conversation and has now more clearly articulated his favor on a total ban and I think believes I'm a terrorist.

 

[LemonMelon]

And then of course Irvine writes his post while I write mine.

We're not banning guns. This is a country built by cowboys and conquest. It would be nice, but it won't happen.

 

[Irvine511]

A few thoughts from a "regular law abiding gun owner."



First, get off your high horse. I find it disgusting that rather than blame the mother fucker who did this, most anti second-amendment people will blame absolutely everyone and everything else before the person themselves. I take it personally that you believe I bear any responsibility for this.



I also like to drink alcohol, and I also like to drive my car, though never at the same time of course. Does being a responsible drinker make me responsible for all the thousands of DUI fatalities?



This also assumes that all responsible gun owners don't believe that there needs to be changes. But the issue is mental health, and the broken mental health system in this country and the broken background check system. And let's also not forget the many laws and regulations already in place that simply aren't enforced.



Most of the people I hear saying how we need to ban guns in this country ironically also feel like we need to end the war on drugs and rather spend our resources addressing the underlying issues of poverty and drug addiction (which I totally agree with). Our streets are flooded with both illegal drugs and illegal guns, yet when it comes to gun violence, somehow the same logic doesn't apply and banning them will simply solve the problem and make it all go away. (Even more ironic since a lot of the root causes of gun violence are the same as rampant drug abuse) Instead of addressing the root causes, they jump straight to the guns, because somehow guns are what makes people commit these terrible acts.



If you want to straight up ban guns, you're going to have to amend the Constitution and remove the 2nd amendment. I'm not a big fan of the NRA because of they're often extreme stance that puts guns owners in a bad light. But I also acknowledge that if it wasn't for them, myself and others would have lost their rights to own firearms long ago.



So if you want to take away anything from what I just said, it's that both sides of the debate need to take a step to find common ground. I think gun owners would be far less resistant to legislation to revamp background checks if legislators weren't also always trying to also ban black scary looking semi auto rifles and magazines that can hold more than a few bullets. With a better, universal and enforced background check system, as well as fixing the broken health care system and combating poverty and gang culture in inner cities, things like this would become rare.



Just my two cents.

1. I blame the gun he used. A knife or a rock wouldn't have accomplished the task.

2. You can't tell the difference between an accident and a homicide?

3. Mental health is a distraction. Of course it needs to be better. We have no more crazy people than any other country. But we do have more guns. Do the math. It's the guns the guns the guns. We could also talk about the stigmatization of the mentally ill -- most of whom are harmless -- but gun owners don't want to admit that, since they lose their easy explanation/excuse for the endless stream of violence they facilitate.

4. The 2nd Amendment has been wildly misinterpreted.

5. I agree with gun violence and drug use having the same "root causes." But this proves my point -- the presence of a gun in ANY situation raises the likelihood of death. It's very simple. Guns kill people. That's what they are built to do.

6. A few weeks ago, and just a few blocks from me, a kid was hit in the head by a stray bullet as he got out of a taxi. As a gun owner, and as someone who believes in his "right" to bear arms, you have contributed to that young man's death.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I don't actually believe that guns would be banned. But that doesn't stop some from calling for it and pretending the second amendment doesn't exist. Or that it's somehow been misinterpreted for the past two and a half centuries since it was created, which I don't understand.

 

[Irvine511]

Could you please elaborate on blaming the NRA and "regular law-abiding gun owners" for Mr. Flanagan's actions this morning?

Virginia is a very easy place to get a gun. That's where DC guns come from. That's where this man purchased the gun that he used to me see two people.

Why do you think it's so easy to get a gun in Virginia? NRA HQ is right there off 66 in Fairfax.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

As a gun owner, and as someone who believes in his "right" to bear arms, you have contributed to that young man's death.

That's insane. Guess I'll go back to hunting with rocks and knives then.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't actually believe that guns would be banned. But that doesn't stop some from calling for it and pretending the second amendment doesn't exist. Or that it's somehow been misinterpreted for the past two and a half centuries since it was created, which I don't understand.

“A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

What member of a well-regulated militia was this gentleman a part of?

We have a military and a National Guard.

 

[Irvine511]

That's insane. Guess I'll go back to hunting with rocks and knives then.

If you'd like it have it licensed, registered, and stored at the hunting club, I have no problems with that. Sign it out and then back in when you're done.

What's insane is not understanding how you're part of the problem here.

 

[LemonMelon]

3. Mental health is a distraction.

It's a useful distraction. Inefficient background checks are a useful distraction. Poverty is a useful distraction. If gun homicide leads to the improvement of mental health treatments, background checks and bans on obscenely dangerous assault weapons for civilians (which is where I start to question the limitations of the 2nd amendment), I call that making lemons into lemonade. Because a call for an outright ban is going to hit a brick wall.

I respect your passion on this issue though, I really do, and at heart share it.

 

[Irvine511]

It's a useful distraction. Inefficient background checks are a useful distraction. Poverty is a useful distraction. If gun homicide leads to the improvement of mental health treatments, background checks and bans on obscenely dangerous assault weapons for civilians (which is where I start to question the limitations of the 2nd amendment), I call that making lemons into lemonade. Because a call for an outright ban is going to hit a brick wall.

I respect your passion on this issue though, I really do, and at heart share it.

There are smart ways to do this. Other countries have done this. It wasn't until the 1980s that gun ownership was seen as absolute. We can make America great again.

 

[BoMac]

When I went to NYC to see U2 last month, the possibility of getting shot was always in the back of my mind. Is it rational or even healthy to think this? Definitely not. But every once in a while, whether it's when we were in line, or at a restaurant, the thought of getting caught in a mass shooting entered my mind.

The only time I think this is when I go to the United States. These thoughts literally never come to mind in my travels anywhere else in the world.

Like, seriously, how can anyone deny that the U.S. has a problem on its hands, something which is not the case in every other developed country in the world? Numbers don't lie.

 

[BoMac]

http://davelozo.tumblr.com/post/127686855563/on-watching-videos-of-the-murders-of-two

 

[BoMac]

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I'm getting so frustrated with the whole "knives/cars" comparisons that always seem to come up in these debates. Yes, knives and cars have been used to commit murder. Absolutely.

But that is not their only use. That is not what they were designed for. They have plenty of non-violent uses.

Guns? Not so much. Their ONLY purpose is to injure or kill humans or animals. That's it. Nothing else. Therefore, it seems blatantly obvious to me that they would be regulated and dealt with differently than knives and cars would.

And it just flat out boggles my mind how, every single time this issue comes up, we can blame any and everything else under the sun for these crimes-video games, violent shows and films, mental illness, etc.-except for the very weapon that actually killed these people. WHY is the actual thing that killed somebody so sacred that we can't dare scrutinize it or criticize how guns are treated/handled by their owners, or question why someone thinks they need to have an entire arsenal of weapons in their home that no average citizen should ever even want, let alone need, to own. Weapons that should solely be relegated to law enforcement and military use, mind, and even then, should be used sparingly at that.

I saw a story on Larry Wilmore's show some time back about some place that banned or restricted the sale of toy guns. Toy guns. Fake guns that will not hurt or kill anyone. You (general you) mean to tell me that we can do that for toy guns but when it comes to the real thing we just kind of have to shrug and go, "Eh, people are going to shoot people no matter what, what're ya gonna do?" No.

These people were struck down by a gun. That is an inarguable fact. The person who shot them clearly should not have had any sort of access to getting a gun. That is also an inarguable fact.

And it is high time we finally actually address this issue, because I am beyond sick and tired of going online or turning on the news and hearing about these kinds of stories seemingly every other damned week. I live in an area of the country where people own guns, and lots of them, and as a result, every story of this sort that I hear makes me a little more nervous. Especially considering how...unstable...some of the gun owners around here tend to be.

The pro-gun side cannot continue to keep sticking their collective heads in the sand on this issue anymore. They just can't. At some point, all these innocent people who've died have to start taking precedence over people's precious weapons, the vast majority of which I'm pretty sure they can live without owning.

 

[deep]

GoPro+Guns+SocialMedia#

live4ever#

 

[Galeongirl]

Guns are obviously not the problem. Guns and gun access laws are totally not the reason why there are so many gun related homicides in the US, compared to the rest of the world...

 

[YBORCITY]

While I'm so saddened for the family's and coworkers and friends of these two innocents what's becoming alarming to myself is how I'm reacting to this. In years past I would be so upset over this and prolly on here spouting off about the NRA and gun control and the Impaler would be answering me that the shooter was the victim in all of this and somehow I'm partly to blame...... My desensitization is more alarming than the actual act, it's alarming to me, the things that I know will be true:

1>. The gun debate will rage for a few weeks
2>. Politicians will get on their soapboxes and proclaim this is the time that they shall stop this senseless violence.
3>. The above politicians will count on the short attention span of the general American citizen will be then more worried about who The Bachlorette will pick or who to vote off of Dancing With The Stars
4>. This will be forgotten until....
5>. It happens again
6>. Repeat steps 1-5

Thinking gun control only would stop this is stupid, deflecting the point onto mental illness is also stupid...... but doing nothing (which I'm sure will happen) is what we Americans are going to get, no leadership in government with all of the elected officials deeply embedded in the NRA's pockets is what to expect.

 

[bono_212]

Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but Australia did not effectively ban guns. Australia made it much more difficult to purchase guns, and have much stronger regulations, but my reading is that in no way did they ban guns.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I don't actually believe that guns would be banned. But that doesn't stop some from calling for it and pretending the second amendment doesn't exist. Or that it's somehow been misinterpreted for the past two and a half centuries since it was created, which I don't understand.

The 18th Amendment existed. Until it didn't.

The 2nd Amendment should be changed. The Constitution was made to be a living breathing document. It was NEVER meant to be the end all, be all. It was specifically designed to be changed as times changed.

So guess what?

Times have fucking changed.

You want a gun so that you can protect yourself in the ways the forefathers intended? Sure! No problem.

Knock yourself the fuck out.

This gun culture in which we live in has to fucking stop. The guns need to go.

Is our record on mental health deplorable in this country? Absolutely. But that doesn't change that it's just too fucking easy for anyone and everyone to get a weapon of death that is completely and utterly unnecessary for the average citizen.

 

[PhilsFan]

Yeah? How so?

Enabling.

 

[Irvine511]

Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but Australia did not effectively ban guns. Australia made it much more difficult to purchase guns, and have much stronger regulations, but my reading is that in no way did they ban guns.

You can effectively ban guns without actually banning guns. That's how we need to go about this. Treat guns as a product with as much need to regulate as cars, and with the social responsibility of cigarettes. A gun in a house with children should be treated with the same opprobrium as a woman drinking and smoking while pregnant. Bring back shame, apply warning labels, tax the shit out of guns and bullets, make life inconvenient for gun owners as we do for cigarette smokers.

Incremental change we can believe in.

And I'll add I have no problems with hunting (asshole dentist game hunters aside). But you can join a club and do that. Regulate, regulate, regulate.

 

[anitram]

People who think of the gun first (and YES, this is many of the law abiding citizens staunchly hanging on to their guns) need to admit openly that they value their choice to own a gun more than they value the human lives that are lost to gun culture. That's what it comes down to really.

 

[PhilsFan]

People who think of the gun first (and YES, this is many of the law abiding citizens staunchly hanging on to their guns) need to admit openly that they value their choice to own a gun more than they value the human lives that are lost to gun culture. That's what it comes down to really.

*extremely gun-owner voice* Gun culture is not what's causing these deaths, it's the culture of the people using the guns!

 

[YBORCITY]

The 18th Amendment existed. Until it didn't.

The 2nd Amendment should be changed. The Constitution was made to be a living breathing document. It was NEVER meant to be the end all, be all. It was specifically designed to be changed as times changed.

So guess what?

Times have fucking changed.

You want a gun so that you can protect yourself in the ways the forefathers intended? Sure! No problem.

Knock yourself the fuck out.

This gun culture in which we live in has to fucking stop. The guns need to go.

Is our record on mental health deplorable in this country? Absolutely. But that doesn't change that it's just too fucking easy for anyone and everyone to get a weapon of death that is completely and utterly unnecessary for the average citizen.

All of this.....

For example, why would a regular citizen need hollow point bullets?

Why would a regular citizen need anything more than say a hunting rifle to shoot game or a handgun to protect themselves with?

 

[Galeongirl]

All of this.....

For example, why would a regular citizen need hollow point bullets?

Why would a regular citizen need anything more than say a hunting rifle to shoot game or a handgun to protect themselves with?

Because FREEDOM! And rights! And ancient pieces of paper saying they can!

 

[YBORCITY]

Because FREEDOM! And rights! And ancient pieces of paper saying they can!

I get it GG, that's such a stupid argument isn't it? I'm gonna go out on a limb and prolly say our forefather's had no idea of hollow point bullets and semi automatic weaponry back when this was written. And PLEASE don't think I'm a weapon hating lib because I'm not. My belief is that we have a right to protect ourselves, family and property.

 

[Galeongirl]

I'm not a weapon hating liberal either, I just do not see why regular citizens would need a weapon in their home. I just don't get it... Here there are guns, heavily regulated yes, there's shooting clubs where guns are locked into the club when you leave, there's hunters that have their rifles but are regulated as well, there's background checks, and of course our police officers have guns but don't use them that much (though it has been a point of discussion lately). So why, please someone tell me why would a random person need a gun in their house?