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Old 08-26-2015, 11:04 PM   #61
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I think it's very significant that your first response was, 'won't anyone think of the guns?' first.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:08 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
Nobody in this conversation. It's a convenient strawman.


I'd love to effectively ban guns.

Australia and Scotland essentially did just that.

I blame the NRA -- a terrorist organization that has caused the death of more Americans than ISIS or AQ could ever dream of -- and ordinary gun owners for preventing such a thing from ever occurring in this country.

I do blame gun owners. More guns, more gun crimes. You are no better than someone who buys heroin or meth or cocaine -- you are supporting an industry of mass death. And it's your insistence on "rights" and willingness to protect this misunderstood interpretation of the Constitution that has created a country where mass shootings are commonplace.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:10 PM   #63
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That was only one small piece of what I said. But regardless, I added it because that is what it seems Irvine would like to see.
It's actually a very important part of what you said (that accounted for 2 of 6 paragraphs in the post) because it underlines that we're not having the same conversation. We're all in agreement that taking away every gun cold turkey is a pipe dream at this stage and would lead to some very serious problems and that the issue is cultural and systemic.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but there's something very defensive about the post too, which is understandable considering you took personal offense to Irvine's post. But as you said, it's time to set the bullshit aside and find common ground. There's a problem. The vast majority agree on that. Ignoring the fringe idiots on either side, let's figure this out. Because what's really disgusting is that this is treated as a partisan issue.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:11 PM   #64
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No, my first response was outrage of being blamed for this tragedy. And why do I need to repeat what everyone else is saying about how horrible and senseless this was? I'm just trying to add another perspective to the conversation here. I certainly respect other people's opinions so long as they respect mine.

Quote:
It's actually a very important part of what you said (that accounted for 2 of 6 paragraphs in the post) because it underlines that we're not having the same conversation. The people you speak of don't exist in this thread. We're all in agreement that taking away every gun cold turkey would lead to some very serious problems and that the issue is cultural and systemic
I was directly responding to Irvine, who is indeed a part of this conversation and has now more clearly articulated his favor on a total ban and I think believes I'm a terrorist.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:13 PM   #65
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And then of course Irvine writes his post while I write mine.

We're not banning guns. This is a country built by cowboys and conquest. It would be nice, but it won't happen.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:17 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
A few thoughts from a "regular law abiding gun owner."



First, get off your high horse. I find it disgusting that rather than blame the mother fucker who did this, most anti second-amendment people will blame absolutely everyone and everything else before the person themselves. I take it personally that you believe I bear any responsibility for this.



I also like to drink alcohol, and I also like to drive my car, though never at the same time of course. Does being a responsible drinker make me responsible for all the thousands of DUI fatalities?



This also assumes that all responsible gun owners don't believe that there needs to be changes. But the issue is mental health, and the broken mental health system in this country and the broken background check system. And let's also not forget the many laws and regulations already in place that simply aren't enforced.



Most of the people I hear saying how we need to ban guns in this country ironically also feel like we need to end the war on drugs and rather spend our resources addressing the underlying issues of poverty and drug addiction (which I totally agree with). Our streets are flooded with both illegal drugs and illegal guns, yet when it comes to gun violence, somehow the same logic doesn't apply and banning them will simply solve the problem and make it all go away. (Even more ironic since a lot of the root causes of gun violence are the same as rampant drug abuse) Instead of addressing the root causes, they jump straight to the guns, because somehow guns are what makes people commit these terrible acts.



If you want to straight up ban guns, you're going to have to amend the Constitution and remove the 2nd amendment. I'm not a big fan of the NRA because of they're often extreme stance that puts guns owners in a bad light. But I also acknowledge that if it wasn't for them, myself and others would have lost their rights to own firearms long ago.



So if you want to take away anything from what I just said, it's that both sides of the debate need to take a step to find common ground. I think gun owners would be far less resistant to legislation to revamp background checks if legislators weren't also always trying to also ban black scary looking semi auto rifles and magazines that can hold more than a few bullets. With a better, universal and enforced background check system, as well as fixing the broken health care system and combating poverty and gang culture in inner cities, things like this would become rare.



Just my two cents.


1. I blame the gun he used. A knife or a rock wouldn't have accomplished the task.

2. You can't tell the difference between an accident and a homicide?

3. Mental health is a distraction. Of course it needs to be better. We have no more crazy people than any other country. But we do have more guns. Do the math. It's the guns the guns the guns. We could also talk about the stigmatization of the mentally ill -- most of whom are harmless -- but gun owners don't want to admit that, since they lose their easy explanation/excuse for the endless stream of violence they facilitate.

4. The 2nd Amendment has been wildly misinterpreted.

5. I agree with gun violence and drug use having the same "root causes." But this proves my point -- the presence of a gun in ANY situation raises the likelihood of death. It's very simple. Guns kill people. That's what they are built to do.

6. A few weeks ago, and just a few blocks from me, a kid was hit in the head by a stray bullet as he got out of a taxi. As a gun owner, and as someone who believes in his "right" to bear arms, you have contributed to that young man's death.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:19 PM   #67
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I don't actually believe that guns would be banned. But that doesn't stop some from calling for it and pretending the second amendment doesn't exist. Or that it's somehow been misinterpreted for the past two and a half centuries since it was created, which I don't understand.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:22 PM   #68
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Could you please elaborate on blaming the NRA and "regular law-abiding gun owners" for Mr. Flanagan's actions this morning?


Virginia is a very easy place to get a gun. That's where DC guns come from. That's where this man purchased the gun that he used to me see two people.

Why do you think it's so easy to get a gun in Virginia? NRA HQ is right there off 66 in Fairfax.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:24 PM   #69
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As a gun owner, and as someone who believes in his "right" to bear arms, you have contributed to that young man's death.
That's insane. Guess I'll go back to hunting with rocks and knives then.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:25 PM   #70
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I don't actually believe that guns would be banned. But that doesn't stop some from calling for it and pretending the second amendment doesn't exist. Or that it's somehow been misinterpreted for the past two and a half centuries since it was created, which I don't understand.


“A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

What member of a well-regulated militia was this gentleman a part of?

We have a military and a National Guard.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:26 PM   #71
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Reporter and Cameraman Murdered on Live TV

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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
That's insane. Guess I'll go back to hunting with rocks and knives then.


If you'd like it have it licensed, registered, and stored at the hunting club, I have no problems with that. Sign it out and then back in when you're done.

What's insane is not understanding how you're part of the problem here.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:27 PM   #72
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3. Mental health is a distraction.
It's a useful distraction. Inefficient background checks are a useful distraction. Poverty is a useful distraction. If gun homicide leads to the improvement of mental health treatments, background checks and bans on obscenely dangerous assault weapons for civilians (which is where I start to question the limitations of the 2nd amendment), I call that making lemons into lemonade. Because a call for an outright ban is going to hit a brick wall.

I respect your passion on this issue though, I really do, and at heart share it.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:32 PM   #73
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Reporter and Cameraman Murdered on Live TV

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
It's a useful distraction. Inefficient background checks are a useful distraction. Poverty is a useful distraction. If gun homicide leads to the improvement of mental health treatments, background checks and bans on obscenely dangerous assault weapons for civilians (which is where I start to question the limitations of the 2nd amendment), I call that making lemons into lemonade. Because a call for an outright ban is going to hit a brick wall.

I respect your passion on this issue though, I really do, and at heart share it.



There are smart ways to do this. Other countries have done this. It wasn't until the 1980s that gun ownership was seen as absolute. We can make America great again.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:19 AM   #74
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Reporter and Cameraman Murdered on Live TV

When I went to NYC to see U2 last month, the possibility of getting shot was always in the back of my mind. Is it rational or even healthy to think this? Definitely not. But every once in a while, whether it's when we were in line, or at a restaurant, the thought of getting caught in a mass shooting entered my mind.

The only time I think this is when I go to the United States. These thoughts literally never come to mind in my travels anywhere else in the world.

Like, seriously, how can anyone deny that the U.S. has a problem on its hands, something which is not the case in every other developed country in the world? Numbers don't lie.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:36 AM   #75
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http://davelozo.tumblr.com/post/1276...murders-of-two
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