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Old 09-19-2015, 03:36 PM   #31
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Old 09-19-2015, 04:03 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
"dangling the open borders/free for all carrot" is a little trite...

Is it?

Like you say there have been refugees and migrants crossing the Mediterranean for many, many years. The Syrian war started in 2011, Aleppo was bombed for the first time in late 2011, yet these masses of immigrants trying to reach Western Europe has started when? And is it getting any better since the media got involved on a whole new level a few months ago?

Refugees should be welcomed, there is absolutely no question about that. My issue is the tens of thousands of migrants taking up resources, aid and shelter that was meant for people fleeing a war torn country. There is nothing wrong with migrating for economic reasons either, heck, I moved to a different country myself, but I didn't march up to the border and demanded entrance. I know it's not all that simple and lines do get blurry, but what is happening now is not sustainable and no nation can integrate these massive amounts of people in one go.

And those that will suffer in the end, will be the actual refugees running for their lives because immigration will be nearly impossible in the next little while.




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Old 09-19-2015, 04:28 PM   #33
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Most of the young Syrian men are probably draft dodgers. Previously, they could pay $2000 to avoid conscription. Given the depletion in the army ranks, they're probably cracking down on the dodgers.

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If Germany wants them they should just send a fleet of Lufthansa planes to Izmir, Turkey and airlift them. Same goes for other countries.
I believe there's a EU law stating they need to be physically present in the EU to claim asylum.
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Old 09-19-2015, 04:42 PM   #34
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I believe there's a EU law stating they need to be physically present in the EU to claim asylum.
There is also an EU law that the first EU country into which they cross, they must seek asylum there. Which nobody is doing.
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Old 09-19-2015, 05:32 PM   #35
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There is also an EU law that the first EU country into which they cross, they must seek asylum there. Which nobody is doing.
I saw some quotes from refugees that they tried that, but were denied on the spot. Or they were put into camps behind barbed wire.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:07 PM   #36
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I don't know where you read that but those are miniscule outliers. Virtually every other interview has said that "we don't want to stay in Greece/Hungary/Croatia/Bulgaria/Slovenia, we want to go to Germany!!"
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:25 AM   #37
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Many don't want to stay because of the inhumane way they were treated. Most of these countries rejected the refugee quotas proposed by the EU, so they weren't going to end up staying long in any case. The Hungarian PM made some heinous comments about them as well.
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Old 09-20-2015, 03:32 PM   #38
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I think some of the countries have behaved poorly but MOST of these people had no intention of ever staying there anyway. It has been patently clear from the beginning they wanted to go to Germany, and possibly Sweden. The countries which have openly said no to quotas are Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland, of those, Hungary is the only country that the people found themselves in. So far Croatia has had well over 20,000 people cross the border and 2 claimed asylum despite the local government accepting the quota (first 1600, then 3500) imposed on them. What is wrong with Slovenia? Austria has seen relatively few claims as well.
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Old 11-21-2015, 12:02 PM   #39
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I think a good read on the theories underlying the different attitudes toward refugees (and also migrants) is this essay by Alexander Betts, director of the Refugee Studies Centre and Professor of Refugee and Forced Migration Studies at the University of Oxford:
The Normative Terrain of the Global Refugee Regime - Ethics & International Affairs : Ethics & International Affairs

Quote:
As I stated at the beginning of this essay, the refugee regime is at a crossroads. Created in the aftermath of the Second World War, the regime was a product of its time. Since then, international society has evolved. The distribution of power in the international system has changed, as has the nature of displacement. As asylum and immigration have become more politicized, so too has the protection space available to refugees diminished.
[...]
Old assumptions no longer apply. Refugees are not an inevitable cost on host states; they can also be a socioeconomic benefit. States are no longer the only protection actors; markets also matter for the outcomes for refugees.
[...]
To renegotiate it today would be almost politically impossible; indeed, it would likely result in a worse agreement than was arrived at in 1951.
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:44 PM   #40
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I saw a post and video on Facebook today on the riots occurring in Europe.

I have not seen anything on this in the mainstream U.S. media.

I did a Google search and got a lot of hits.
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Old 01-06-2016, 05:12 PM   #41
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This may not have involved Syrian refugees, but could easily start a backlash:

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COLOGNE, Germany (AP) - More women came forward Wednesday alleging they were sexually assaulted and robbed during New Year's Eve celebrations in the German city of Cologne, as police faced mounting criticism for their handling of the incident.
At least 106 criminal complaints have been filed since last week, Cologne police spokesman Christoph Gilles said. The figure has increased from 90 since Tuesday.
"At least three quarters have a sexual component. In two cases we are investigating crimes that amount to rape," Gilles told The Associated Press.
About 1,000 men described by police as being of "Arab or North African origin" gathered around Cologne's main station, next to the city's famous cathedral, on the night from Thursday to Friday. Smaller groups then surrounded individual women, harassed them and stole their belongings.
Police initially failed to mention the assaults in report the following morning, describing the festivities as "largely peaceful."
Details of the attacks only emerged over the weekend and calls have grown for a comprehensive review of police actions on the night, after some witnesses claimed that officers didn't stop the attackers.
Gilles said police were well prepared on the night, but "surprised" by the scale and aggression of the attacks.
Mayor Henriette Reker said she expected police to analyze what went wrong and "draw consequences from that."
She didn't elaborate on what that would entail. Police chief Wolfgang Albers has shrugged off questions about his own future, saying that he will stay in his post, though he acknowledged that the initial failure to mention the assaults was a mistake.
Ralf Jaeger, North Rhine-Westphalia state's interior minister, said he expected a detailed report from Cologne police this week on who knew what when.
"The Cologne police force must clear up meticulously what happened where and when, what police could know and evaluate when and where, and what measures have to be taken."
Gilles, the police spokesman, said the city has 10 officers working on the attacks and four men have been detained.
Among the angles police are investigating is whether there are any links to similar crimes committed over the past two years in the nearby city of Duesseldorf, where men have groped women to distract them before stealing their belongings. The two cities are 40 kilometers (25 miles) apart.
Markus Niesczeri, a spokesman for Duesseldorf police, said that since the start of 2014, officers there have identified more than 2,000 suspects of North African origin in connection with organized thefts, though he didn't say how many. He declined to say whether there have been any arrests in those cases.
"At the moment we can't make a serious connection because we don't have the perpetrators from New Year's Eve," Gilles said. "It's not excluded that there are overlaps, but that's still the subject of investigation."
Police are encouraging more women to come forward.
"Most of the victims were from outside Cologne who filed criminal complaints in their home towns or with federal police," Gilles said, adding that they included women of all ages and nationalities.
In addition to widespread shock over the scale and nature of the attacks, the incident has also fueled public debate about Germany's ability to integrate large numbers of migrants.
Germany registered nearly 1.1 million people as asylum seekers last year, according to Interior Ministry figures released Wednesday, and some politicians who have called for limits on migration have seized on the incident in Cologne to bolster their position.
Germany's top security official stressed that those involved must be punished regardless of where they come from. Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere said that "you cannot draw a general suspicion against refugees from the indications that they were perhaps people who looked North African."
He added that "a bit of patience is necessary to clear up as completely as possible the structure of the perpetrators and the organizational structures there might have been," including whether there was any link to similar, smaller-scale incidents on New Year's Eve in Hamburg.
De Maiziere noted that, under German law, criminal behavior has a direct effect on a person's asylum proceedings if he or she is sentenced to at least three years in prison. He said that "we will have to talk about whether that needs to be changed."
In any case, "anyone who commits serious crimes, whatever status he is in, must reckon with being deported from Germany," de Maiziere said.
Antonia Rabente, a 26-year-old student in Cologne, said the mood in the city was divided.
"On the one hand there's a feeling that what happened is wrong and many people concerned about this. But where people are split is in how to respond," she said. "I think it's important to keep the focus on the women who were affected. They need to be the focus of attention now and not misused for attacks on the right to asylum."
About 100 people protested Wednesday against a far-right rally near the train station that numbered less than 10 people.
Watching from nearby, Gudrun Sauer, a retired civil servant, said she was disappointed by the events and called for a change in the law to allow foreigners found guilty of serious crimes to be deported regardless of whether they face possible persecution in their home country.
But she disagreed with those who blamed the latest wave of refugees for the assaults.
"The people who come here and went through such hardship, they're hoping for a better future here," said Sauer. "I don't think they'd risk doing something like that. You shouldn't throw everything in one pot."
Cologne's mayor, meanwhile, was mocked on social media for saying, when asked Tuesday about what women can do to protect themselves better: "There is always the possibility of keeping a certain distance, more than an arm's length" from strangers.
Some of those who criticized her felt that Reker was blaming women for the attacks and lambasted the idea that women could have simply protected themselves by keeping men at arm's length.
Reker said Wednesday that she regretted any misunderstanding, but had merely been pointing to existing prevention and counseling programs in response to a journalist's question.
"The priority is for concrete security to be provided on our streets and squares," she said in a statement.
The fact this involved hundreds of men and seems coordinated throughout the country sounds terrifying to me, especially as a woman.

And I don't even want to know what's going through the mind of that Cologne mayor 😠


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Old 01-06-2016, 06:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
I saw a post and video on Facebook today on the riots occurring in Europe.

I have not seen anything on this in the mainstream U.S. media.

I did a Google search and got a lot of hits.
Congratulations. Good work.
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:58 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
This may not have involved Syrian refugees, but could easily start a backlash:



The fact this involved hundreds of men and seems coordinated throughout the country sounds terrifying to me, especially as a woman.

And I don't even want to know what's going through the mind of that Cologne mayor 😠


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That mayor is nucking futs. Could be a tipping point for the German public.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:11 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
This may not have involved Syrian refugees, but could easily start a backlash:



The fact this involved hundreds of men and seems coordinated throughout the country sounds terrifying to me, especially as a woman.

And I don't even want to know what's going through the mind of that Cologne mayor 😠


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That's atrocious and sickening. Few things infuriate me as much as rape. Can't imagine the horror of that happening. I hope these bastards are brought to justice.


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Old 01-08-2016, 03:49 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
This may not have involved Syrian refugees, but could easily start a backlash:



The fact this involved hundreds of men and seems coordinated throughout the country sounds terrifying to me, especially as a woman.

And I don't even want to know what's going through the mind of that Cologne mayor 😠


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Although there have been reports of smaller scale incidents in Stuttgart and Hamburg, there's no evidence of these being coordinated and neither is there evidence they were committed by refugees. By saying the perpetrators 'looked Arab or North African' doesn't mean they were refugees, many German citizens are North African/Arab. It's a scheme that's been used for a while, gangs of petty thieves approach women and verbally harass them to divert their attention and steal small belongings such as phones, wallets etc. It has to be rightfully treated as a crime, however it can't be used as a tool to debate cultural attitudes towards women as some have been doing. Such a shame.
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