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Old 12-22-2008, 02:46 PM   #46
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As for the cruelty to animals aspect, I do think that is something we should be concerned about to a degree, especially those animals being raised for mass slaughter and the conditions they are often raised under. I feel like if you eat meat, you need to be willing to face what it takes to put that meat on your plate. I kind of take that stereotypical Native American approach--"Thank you, cow, for giving your life so that I can eat. . ."
This I agree with completely, I have a lot more respect for someone who kills the animal themselves. I don't necessarily agree with it but I respect the fact that that person understands completely where their food is coming from is willing to do that.

Thanks to mass production meat is just another commodity now, it's just this sterile food you buy in a grocery store neatly packed with a bar code, there is no attention or respect paid to the living, breathing, thinking animal that was killed to obtain it.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:37 PM   #47
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I think it is healthier to be vegetarian, but I think you can be healthy if you eat meat in moderation as well. I think Lies probably has the perfect way to eat meat. The meat she does eat is probably way healthier than most and the deer had a nice life in the wild until met it's untimely end and found itself in grandpa's freezer.

As for the cruelty to animals aspect, I do think that is something we should be concerned about to a degree, especially those animals being raised for mass slaughter and the conditions they are often raised under. I feel like if you eat meat, you need to be willing to face what it takes to put that meat on your plate. I kind of take that stereotypical Native American approach--"Thank you, cow, for giving your life so that I can eat. . ."
I agree Sean. I'm not like picketing against farms or anything, but....I dunno it just seems kinda icky and I don't really want to eat that meat anyway. But I guess I'm lucky I get fresh meats for free.

I don't hunt myself, but I know the deer population here is out of control. They keep introducing more special/early seasons to try to control it but as much as hunters kill they can't keep up. They are also trying to encourage natural predators, but urbal sprawl conflicts with that. That's what has always been ironic to me about how many people I know that won't eat meat b/c they are against hunting, but are fine living in a huge house in the suburbs which used to be a nice forest or prairie where they animals lived and their food chain was balanced. Some of the diseases these animals can die from when overpopulated, trust me a bullet or an arrow is a better way to go.

We do not hunt more than we eat, and still the deer population goes up. My dad butchers it himself which is nice. My uncle and brother are all into these outdoorsy things and make stuff with hides, bones, and antlers. My bro even burried a head so the grubs could pick it dry and then he dug it up a year later. I'm not sure about other families, but where we hunt, the men impose their own limits. They don't shoot young bucks even though their DNR tags say they can.

I don't have a problem shooting the deer. I don't hunt myself because I don't have the patience, I hate the cold, and gutting a deer and dragging it several miles just isn't my idea of weekend fun, but I'm not morally opposed to hunting as long as it's properly regulated.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:49 PM   #48
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VP, there are a lot of textured soy products in grocery stores these days which mimic meat to the point of being eerily too close for even me sometimes, If you are more into the processed meats to start with you might want to give some of these a try.

Yves and Tofurkey (yes, tofurkey) are two good companies to look for, for example...
I've seen Yves in one of my local stores. Thanks, I'll check it out.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:50 PM   #49
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I don't eat a lot of meat but I eat a ton of fish (and shellfish) and there is absolutely not a way I'd give that up, ever. I love seafood and it is very good for you, if you avoid mercury infused things.

I am not a big fan of chicken or turkey, so I never buy either although I'll eat it if I have to. Most of my meat is consumed by way of pasta sauces (beef/tomato), which I eat about twice a week. I also like to have a really good steak maybe 3-4 times per year. And I do enjoy a bacon cheeseburger every once in a while, although I don't eat those more than maybe once a month, tops. I don't eat cold cuts, processed meat, hot dogs or anything of the like because I find them really disgusting in terms of texture/flavour, not necessarily health reasons.

I eat a LOT of beans and legumes, they are probably the main staple in my diet. My favourite beans are azuki beans (had them today), and I love beans any which way, fried, refried, in a chili, etc. I also love lentils and eat a daal pretty often, as well as lentil soups.

Having said that, I like some meat, especially if it is grilled - that is my absolute favourite. I abhor the texture of tofu and there are very few ways I can eat it (I like ma po tofu, for example). Fake burgers, tofurkey, etc, is nasty tasting and would bring my life very little joy. So given that I eat maybe 10-15% of my diet in the form of meat and given that I do NOT eat dairy, I see no reason to give up the little I eat. I have a cousin who is a militant vegetarian and I mean MILITANT and every time she opens her mouth, I want to eat 3 steaks in retaliation. That's how irritating she is.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:59 PM   #50
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and the justification for NOT eating meat isn't equally "amazing"?

i'm sorry, but i couldn't give a shit if someone had a problem with me eating meat. i've got vegan and vegetarian friends, and they're lovely... but just as i don't shove meat in their face, they don't shove their idealogy in mine.
Eat all the meat you want. The problem isn't with ideology, nor is it with personal choices. The problem is that children are growing up not knowing what foods are healthy and what foods are killing them. Later in life they're paying the price for it, as will we all in health care costs. This has nothing to do with your personal choice, and everything to do with how our culture exposes our children to our unhealthy eating choices.

IMO this is no different than running cigarette ads. At one time people thought cigarettes were OK for you. Over time we realized that this is wrong. Hopefully over time we'll accept that we'll be healthier without meat. But for now, we as a society just find meat too yummy to give up. Or something.

Maybe it's fine in moderation (like one meal per week, and only if it's free-range organic) but it should be eaten as a "treat" and not considered a vital part of our diet, which it isn't.

I look at my brother-in-law's kids, who were raised to eat healthfully. It all works quite well until you're a teenager, and all your friends are eating McFood. You complain about having an ideology forced on you when your ideology has been forced on the entire population for centuries.

Eat what you want. Smoke what you want. I'm not trying to preach, but given the topic of this thread, I think you'll find a few opinions here. But when it comes to the facts, the research is more than conclusive.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:07 PM   #51
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Eat all the meat you want. The problem isn't with ideology, nor is it with personal choices. The problem is that children are growing up not knowing what foods are healthy and what foods are killing them. Later in life they're paying the price for it, as will we all in health care costs. This has nothing to do with your personal choice, and everything to do with how our culture exposes our children to our unhealthy eating choices.

IMO this is no different than running cigarette ads. At one time people thought cigarettes were OK for you. Over time we realized that this is wrong. Hopefully over time we'll accept that we'll be healthier without meat. But for now, we as a society just find meat too yummy to give up. Or something.

Maybe it's fine in moderation (like one meal per week, and only if it's free-range organic) but it should be eaten as a "treat" and not considered a vital part of our diet, which it isn't.

I look at my brother-in-law's kids, who were raised to eat healthfully. It all works quite well until you're a teenager, and all your friends are eating McFood. You complain about having an ideology forced on you when your ideology has been forced on the entire population for centuries.

Eat what you want. Smoke what you want. I'm not trying to preach, but given the topic of this thread, I think you'll find a few opinions here. But when it comes to the facts, the research is more than conclusive.
very good, cydewaze. in fact, i agree with a lot of what you're saying here.
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:41 PM   #52
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I thought this was going to be about oral sex
well i think it's safe to say that jessica simpson does, in fact, eat the meat...
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:47 PM   #53
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It's way cheaper?
Sure it's cheaper... now. But later? Maybe not.

It's just like gasoline. Regular is cheaper than premium, but if your car requires premium, you're going to pay more for regular in the long run in the form of repairs.

Our bodies require high-quality nutrition, and when we force ourselves to exist on calorie-dense, low-nutrient food, we pay in the form of poor health. It may not be immediately evident, but over time, things like obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, and even cancer will rear their ugly heads.

Pay now, or pay later. Either way, we pay.
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:29 PM   #54
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Sure it's cheaper... now. But later? Maybe not.

It's just like gasoline. Regular is cheaper than premium, but if your car requires premium, you're going to pay more for regular in the long run in the form of repairs.

Our bodies require high-quality nutrition, and when we force ourselves to exist on calorie-dense, low-nutrient food, we pay in the form of poor health. It may not be immediately evident, but over time, things like obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, and even cancer will rear their ugly heads.

Pay now, or pay later. Either way, we pay.
Right but this is exactly my point. Who here has enough time and money and resources to live a perfectly healthy life? I do not disagree that if done right a no-meat diet is healthier than meat. But we all pick our battles. There are probably things I do in other aspects of my life that might be healthier than what you choose to do. Everyone is exposed to risks every day. Our cars, jobs, houses, computer, sports, pets....you name it. I eat meat I dunno, once a week or once every two weeks. I don't believe that I'm honestly cutting years off my life for that. I can think of ten other things I do that are far more unhealthy (soda, cheese, sitting in front of a computer screen at work all day when I already have terrible eye sight and suffer from migraines, driving a car with some problems I can't afford to fix...). So we all have plenty of room for improvement but that doesn't mean giving up meat is really going to make all that much of a difference. Maybe for my husband who probably eats 3-4 times as much meat as me. I'm already selective about my meat. I like fish, chicken, and lean venison. If I get a sandwich from the cafe I pick off the salami and add on vegetables from the salad bar. Beyond that meat is just not something I care to get obsessed about. My health issues revolve around sleep and light. I make a point of getting 8 hours of sleep a day and sleeping on a regular schedule. I also need to be outside or I get S.A.D. Yesterday I spent an hour shoveling dog shit in a muddy backyard but just being outdoors, doing some form of physical activity in daylight makes me feel 100 times better. I also started running again so I'm running 45 minutes a day. Personally I think the benefits of getting the right amount of restful sleep, doing chores outdoors in the sun, and getting a good cardio workout 5-6 times a week far outweigh the benefits of simply giving up what little meat I eat. I understand the point about it being better in the long run, but I don't have diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and my BMI is 19. I feel like if I maintain how I already live, giving up a few ounces of meet once a week will have a marginal effect, if anything.
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Old 12-30-2008, 02:03 PM   #55
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I was a vegetarian for about 16 years. I did my best to eat a balanced vegetarian diet but I did not get enough protein or amino acids, and I was a beans/rice/vegetables/exercising kind of vegetarian. When I hit 40, I had a lot of health problems and worked with a nutritionist to get back on track. I've said this many times here but I'll repeat it for what it's worth. The nutritionist told me he had never seen a truly healthy long-term vegetarian over the age of 40, and that I was a classic case. It does not mean that it's not possible - it's just that most people don't have the time, money, knowledge, etc. about how to do it right (this could be said of a lot of meat eaters, too, of course - but in his experience he had seen more extreme cases amongst vegetarians). I realized that for the entire time that I was a vegetarian, I had a low-grade depression, anemia, and was a severe insomniac. While always thin, I had far less muscle tone than my meat-eating sisters, even though I was the one who worked out. I started eating meat again slowly and supplementing with amino acids and a full spectrum of vitamins, minerals, etc., and started sleeping again. The depression lifted, and I am today healthier and stronger than I've ever been.

I will never forget the first day I saw the nutritionist. After looking at my bloodwork (which my medical doctor had said was all good), he said, "Oh my God, no wonder you're depressed! No wonder you don't sleep!" He gave me some amino acids and asked me to take some before bed, as an experiment. He said if you sleep tonight, then we can assume you are severely amino-acid deficient. I slept almost 10 hours that night. I usually averaged around 4.

That is just my little story and is by no means representative of every 40 year old vegetarian who stopped eating meat in their mid-20s. I still prefer a vegetarian diet and I eat only organic meat in moderation. My diet is about 90% organic not counting eating out. I am considered a health freak by my friends and am fortunate that I can afford to eat organic and to buy high quality supplements.

I am neither for nor against eating meat. I think everyone should do what's best for them, and I think all things in moderation is a good plan. I would recommend to vegetarians (and meat-eaters as well) to have bloodwork looked at by a clinical nutritionist who is trained at reading it differently than a regular MD and who sees relationships between the values that an MD may not see, and to make sure you're getting all the nutrients you need.

Liesje, you make some very good points. Others have as well. Everyone is different with different needs.
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:56 PM   #56
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I have only one word to justify why I am a meat eater:

Bacon.

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Old 12-30-2008, 10:06 PM   #57
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I eat meat I dunno, once a week or once every two weeks. I don't believe that I'm honestly cutting years off my life for that.
That amount of meat isn't harmful, as long as you're getting the proper nutrients from the rest of your diet. It's the people who eat meat daily, and/or with every meal who are exposing themselves to an increased risk of disease.


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I was a vegetarian for about 16 years. I did my best to eat a balanced vegetarian diet but I did not get enough protein or amino acids, and I was a beans/rice/vegetables/exercising kind of vegetarian.
That's utterly amazing, especially since countless Olympic/professional athletes excel on vegan diets. Since the average individual gets many times the daily protein required by their bodies (and excess protein can be harmful), the fact that you require more protein than, say, Olympic Track & Field athlete Carl Lewis (or even me, after weight lifting and 3000+ miles of cycling a year) makes you quite an anomaly. In all seriousness, you should probably see a doctor to make sure you don't have a medical condition that's masked by excess protein consumption.


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The nutritionist told me he had never seen a truly healthy long-term vegetarian over the age of 40, and that I was a classic case.
Since it's been documented for some time that vegetarians live an average of 13 years longer than non-vegetarians, and since there are countless pro athletes in the world that perform quite well on a vegetarian/vegan diet, and since by using basic math it's quite easy to get enough protein from non-meat sources, it seems quite odd that your nutritionist has somehow never seen a healthy vegetarian.

What's more likely is that your nutritionist has seen people who claim to be vegetarian, but eat nothing but pasta, rice, bread, and starches. Anyone eating a proper vegetarian diet (raw and cooked leafy green vegetables, beans, legumes, nuts, seeds, and fruit) will easily meet their daily needs. The only thing that meat contains that the above diet does not is vitamin B12. But so many things (breakfast cereals, etc) are B12 fortified, that it's not really an issue. Plus, it's available for cheap as a supplement (you don't need much of it).

That said, if your current diet is working for you, stick with it. I'm no nutritionist and certainly no doctor. But people are people and they need certain nutrients to survive and be healthy. It's better for you to eat a proper diet and have meat two or three times a week than it is to eat a "vegetarian" diet of starches and processed foods that's nutrient deficient. But what your nutritionist told you is contrary to pretty much everything I've ever read (that wasn't sponsored by the beef industry). It's a bit worrisome.
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Old 12-30-2008, 10:08 PM   #58
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That amount of meat isn't harmful, as long as you're getting the proper nutrients from the rest of your diet. It's the people who eat meat daily, and/or with every meal who are exposing themselves to an increased risk of disease.




That's utterly amazing, especially since countless Olympic/professional athletes excel on vegan diets. Since the average individual gets many times the daily protein required by their bodies (and excess protein can be harmful), the fact that you require more protein than, say, Olympic Track & Field athlete Carl Lewis (or even me, after weight lifting and 3000+ miles of cycling a year) makes you quite an anomaly. In all seriousness, you should probably see a doctor to make sure you don't have a medical condition that's masked by excess protein consumption.




Since it's been documented for some time that vegetarians live an average of 13 years longer than non-vegetarians, and since there are countless pro athletes in the world that perform quite well on a vegetarian/vegan diet, and since by using basic math it's quite easy to get enough protein from non-meat sources, it seems quite odd that your nutritionist has somehow never seen a healthy vegetarian.

What's more likely is that your nutritionist has seen people who claim to be vegetarian, but eat nothing but pasta, rice, bread, and starches. Anyone eating a proper vegetarian diet (raw and cooked leafy green vegetables, beans, legumes, nuts, seeds, and fruit) will easily meet their daily needs. The only thing that meat contains that the above diet does not is vitamin B12. But so many things (breakfast cereals, etc) are B12 fortified, that it's not really an issue. Plus, it's available for cheap as a supplement (you don't need much of it).

That said, if your current diet is working for you, stick with it. I'm no nutritionist and certainly no doctor. But people are people and they need certain nutrients to survive and be healthy. It's better for you to eat a proper diet and have meat two or three times a week than it is to eat a "vegetarian" diet of starches and processed foods that's nutrient deficient. But what your nutritionist told you is contrary to pretty much everything I've ever read (that wasn't sponsored by the beef industry). It's a bit worrisome.
Can you name some of the athletes you are referring to? The biggest name that recently turned to a vegetarian diet that I can think of is Prince Fielder. What other athletes of note are out there no eating meat? I'm genuinely curious.
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Old 12-30-2008, 10:12 PM   #59
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Since it's been documented for some time that vegetarians live an average of 13 years longer than non-vegetarians
How much of that difference is comorbidity, for instance the rates of smoking, heavy drinking, lack of exercise and intelligence of the meat versus vegetarian populations.

Abstaining from meat may not make you live any longer.
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Old 12-30-2008, 10:17 PM   #60
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How much of that difference is comorbidity, for instance the rates of smoking, heavy drinking, lack of exercise and intelligence of the meat versus vegetarian populations.

Abstaining from meat may not make you live any longer.
This is very true.

The studies you are talking about are usually carried out in developed Western nations where vegetarianism is synonymous with people who make more money, and have more disposable income and live generally more healthy in other ways (exercise more, don't smoke, etc as A_W suggested).
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