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Old 04-11-2017, 07:59 PM   #346
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I'm flying premium economy on Air France to the US in two days. It was nearly the same price, transatlantic. I did one leg of my roundtrip on Virgin Atlantic at premium economy as well, for only $100 extra (so $800 total). Sometimes you can get deals that are worth it. The price of transatlantic flights have fallen through the floor, which is nice.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:00 PM   #347
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Right, but I'm trying to understand the endless pockets, and which crowds are longing for now defunct regulations?


I didn't understand the latter, but it's my understanding that he's saying nationalized airlines frequently lose money but offer better products. I will say, American and United are complete and utter garbage carriers.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:05 PM   #348
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I'm flying premium economy on Air France to the US in two days. It was nearly the same price, transatlantic. I did one leg of my roundtrip on Virgin Atlantic at premium economy as well, for only $100 extra (so $800 total). Sometimes you can get deals that are worth it. The price of transatlantic flights have fallen through the floor, which is nice.
Again, that's because in the US you have way more choices than we do here which means increased competition and lower prices.

The airline industry in Canada is borderline criminal (like the telecoms). You know we are desperate when we were begging Verizon (!) to come up here. Even they couldn't break the oligopoly.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:05 PM   #349
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Again, that's because in the US you have way more choices than we do here which means increased competition and lower prices.



The airline industry in Canada is borderline criminal (like the telecoms). You know we are desperate when we were begging Verizon (!) to come up here. Even they couldn't break the oligopoly.


I could probably research this, but do you know why carriers other than Air Canada and WestJet haven't taken off in Canada? Are there government barriers to entry? Is it maybe just the fact that it's a relatively small market over a giant land area? Either of those could make it make sense for some sort of policy intervention (although a different one in each case).
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:13 PM   #350
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I could probably research this, but do you know why carriers other than Air Canada and WestJet haven't taken off in Canada? Are there government barriers to entry? Is it maybe just the fact that it's a relatively small market over a giant land area? Either of those could make it make sense for some sort of policy intervention (although a different one in each case).
We've had others that have gone under over the years, and we do have some regionals like Porter in southern Ontario, a couple up in the far north and I think there was one out west (Harmony?) that may or may not still exist.

It's basically a question of geography and population - a huge land mass and relatively small number of people combined with our strict rules on foreign carriers. You are not permitted under Canadian law to fly with a foreign carrier between Canadian cities (unless it's something like Air France flies from Toronto to Paris but stops in Montreal to let passengers on). That restricts competition and therefore only reinforces the existing oligopoly. Incredibly protectionist, but that's par for the course up here.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:52 PM   #351
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We've had others that have gone under over the years, and we do have some regionals like Porter in southern Ontario, a couple up in the far north and I think there was one out west (Harmony?) that may or may not still exist.

It's basically a question of geography and population - a huge land mass and relatively small number of people combined with our strict rules on foreign carriers. You are not permitted under Canadian law to fly with a foreign carrier between Canadian cities (unless it's something like Air France flies from Toronto to Paris but stops in Montreal to let passengers on). That restricts competition and therefore only reinforces the existing oligopoly. Incredibly protectionist, but that's par for the course up here.
Hey, legalize cabotage and you too can have the privilege of flying United on your text trip to Vancouver.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:49 AM   #352
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a flight out of a canadian city is at least 3x more expensive than a flight out of an american city. it's just a result of our much lower population density and similar geography. it's vastly harder to fill toronto to vancouver flights than chicago to seattle flights, but it doesn't cost any less for the canadian airline to fuel up the aircraft to fly those distances. not sure if air canada/westjet pay for fuel in CAD but if so that would have even more of an effect.
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Old 04-12-2017, 03:09 AM   #353
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Again, that's because in the US you have way more choices than we do here which means increased competition and lower prices.



The airline industry in Canada is borderline criminal (like the telecoms). You know we are desperate when we were begging Verizon (!) to come up here. Even they couldn't break the oligopoly.


These pertain to flights originating in Europe, booked via European airlines.
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Old 04-12-2017, 11:36 AM   #354
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These pertain to flights originating in Europe, booked via European airlines.
But they are flying into a location which has so many more options! Consequently the prices are WAY lower. That Euro airline is competing with a bunch of American airlines at the same time and on our end it's competing with Air Canada, full stop.

As a way of example, an Air France flight (cheapest option) on Premium Economy, for 1 week on June 1 to Toronto vs JFK, so basically the closest comparable location is $1271 vs $1052 (all figures in USD w fees).
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Old 04-12-2017, 11:37 AM   #355
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a flight out of a canadian city is at least 3x more expensive than a flight out of an american city. it's just a result of our much lower population density and similar geography. it's vastly harder to fill toronto to vancouver flights than chicago to seattle flights, but it doesn't cost any less for the canadian airline to fuel up the aircraft to fly those distances. not sure if air canada/westjet pay for fuel in CAD but if so that would have even more of an effect.
We also have much higher airport fees, now some of that is to defray the cost of new or renovated airports, but still.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:51 PM   #356
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We also have much higher airport fees, now some of that is to defray the cost of new or renovated airports, but still.


I'll also say - compare Pearson to LaGuardia or Newark, or probably even JFK, and you'll be happy for at least a bit of that delta in airport fees.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:53 PM   #357
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I'll also say - compare Pearson to LaGuardia or Newark, or probably even JFK, and you'll be happy for at least a bit of that delta in airport fees.
Haha, yes. Terminal 1 at Pearson is wonderful, one of the best around. I don't mind JFK that much, what sucks about it is the distance to midtown where I would typically go. LaGuardia is disgusting, it's honestly nastier than some 3rd world airports I've been to.
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:19 PM   #358
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:02 PM   #359
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But they are flying into a location which has so many more options! Consequently the prices are WAY lower. That Euro airline is competing with a bunch of American airlines at the same time and on our end it's competing with Air Canada, full stop.



As a way of example, an Air France flight (cheapest option) on Premium Economy, for 1 week on June 1 to Toronto vs JFK, so basically the closest comparable location is $1271 vs $1052 (all figures in USD w fees).


I don't think that's why it's cheaper. Flights are cheaper based upon itinerary and traffic. CDG is a cheap airport for transatlantic routes. LHR is, too. YYwhatever isn't, except for certain minimal routes. I see lots of Lufthansa/ACanada fights for dirt cheap from where I am in Italy. Some $650, typically through Toronto or Newark with the final destination being Newark and going through somewhere Germany or London. That's got everything to do with Star Alliance traffic. But it's not about competition. It's about volume. The competition comes from airports offering attractive options for airlines and alliances.

You pay for a flight based upon the origination of the flight. Buying an American Airlines round trip from Europe and back is different from doing the reverse. But, ultimately, Canadian airports are lesser in volume. So if an airline sells more seats on their London to New York route, to fly London to Toronto is effectively like flying from London to New York and New York to Toronto. I don't mean that literally. Sometimes that's your itinerary, and sometimes it's virtually your itinerary even on a direct flight, because it's a less frequently offered product.

This same sort of pricing would happen if you managed to fly direct into somewhere like Philadelphia from Europe. You're less likely to find good deals.
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Old 04-15-2017, 01:56 PM   #360
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We also have much higher airport fees, now some of that is to defray the cost of new or renovated airports, but still.
I love Canada but yes the markets there operate quite differently than in the US for example in a number of industries. Not just air travel but telecom as someone mentioned is highly protected. Even buying wine there, it is like going back to the 1970s (or to present day state of Pennsylvania) where the taxes are quite high and the state government runs all of the shops.

It used to be that way in Washington state until about 2008/9 or so...
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