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Old 04-28-2015, 07:24 AM   #766
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That's the one thing I don't get. Sure, you get angry and want to protest... but why the hell does that justify destroying random properties of innocent bystanders? Destroying one other's property has NOTHING to do with these people's reasons for being angry, it's total bullshit and does NOT aide to a solution whatshowever. It only makes them look like a bunch of giant douchebags, rather than normal human beings protesting for their rights.
Do you think peaceful protests will produce the desired results for the protest movement in this case?
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:28 AM   #767
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I wonder if they were able to get into the RX stash of the pharmacy. It was brutal to watch when it first started yesterday. I can see a couple of the impacts of projectiles on the cops. One on the lower leg had to break a bone.
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:33 AM   #768
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Violent riots aren't going to be the answer, of course not, but when your brothers and sisters are being brazenly killed or injured by police, when there's this gigantic trend and no justice is coming to corrupt police, how can you expect people to to march behind a line with signs?
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:35 AM   #769
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On Channel 7 here tonight it was reported like "...with 15 police officers injured..." with absolutely no mention of the deaths at the hands of police officers that led to the riots. And now for the majority of Australians aware of the issue, all they think now is this is a bunch of black "thugs" rioting for the sake of it. This is all part of it, all part of ongoing systemic discrimination and oppression.

I feel quite uncomfortable writing about it because I'm a middle class white dude sitting half a world away, so I will never understand. But these are things I see being said by all the people on the ground.
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:36 AM   #770
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Do you think peaceful protests will produce the desired results for the protest movement in this case?
Of course I can't say for sure, but I'd guess that peaceful protests would produce more favourable results than blind madness rioting and destroying innocent people's properties.
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:37 AM   #771
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Pretty much, rioting isn't intended as an end/solution, but a release of anger in the face of the state.
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:39 AM   #772
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This illustrates why so many in Baltimore are so angry. My heart breaks for the city and the families of the victims of police brutality. Undue force - Sun Investigates - The Baltimore Sun
This is just insane. Holy shit, Baltimore.
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:39 AM   #773
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Of course I can't say for sure, but I'd guess that peaceful protests would produce more favourable results than blind madness rioting and destroying innocent people's properties.
Blind madness rioting? I'm fairly sure they know exactly why they are, hardly 'blind madness.'
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:40 AM   #774
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Blind as in trying to destroy as much as you can in anger without discerning right or wrong, not as in actual localisation.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 04-28-2015, 09:03 AM   #775
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There's no why to it; that's not the point. It's an expression of anger, not an attempt at justice. Forgive me if I don't really care about CVS having to re-build a store. I care about Freddie Gray getting his spine shattered and getting ignored when he begged to get medical attention.

This should not and cannot be about the riots. They're not what matters. Concerning yourself with the riots takes the discussion away from the real issue: police brutality.
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Old 04-28-2015, 09:36 AM   #776
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The problem is that the riots inherently draw sympathy away from the original victims of police brutality and on to the victims of the riots themselves. But what else is someone living in those conditions supposed to do? I'm not going to judge anyone, all I can do is shake my head over the unfortunate circumstances and hope that real change takes place over time.
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Old 04-28-2015, 09:39 AM   #777
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The problem is that the riots inherently draw sympathy away from the original victims of police brutality and on to the victims of the riots themselves. But what else is someone living in those conditions supposed to do? I'm not going to judge anyone, all I can do is shake my head over the unfortunate circumstances and hope that real change takes place over time.
That's pretty much how I feel as well. I'm sorry if I come across as judgmental towards the brutality victims, it's just a giant messy situation and it doesnt'feel right to me that more innocent people become victims. Something has to be done, but what? I have absolutely no clue.

One thing is for sure, the riots sure do cause attention from all over the globe. Who knows, it might turn out to be effective after all.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 04-28-2015, 09:56 AM   #778
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The problem is that the riots inherently draw sympathy away from the original victims of police brutality and on to the victims of the riots themselves. But what else is someone living in those conditions supposed to do? I'm not going to judge anyone, all I can do is shake my head over the unfortunate circumstances and hope that real change takes place over time.
If it wasn't that, it would be something else like Freddie Gray's arrest record (that one is already starting up). No one in media or in power has any interest in talking about the real issue here.
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Old 04-28-2015, 11:03 AM   #779
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Violent riots aren't going to be the answer, of course not, but when your brothers and sisters are being brazenly killed or injured by police, when there's this gigantic trend and no justice is coming to corrupt police, how can you expect people to to march behind a line with signs?

it's difficult to understate how complex Baltimore is, there's a reason why The Wire was set there. and it being 30 miles away, a lot of people down here in DC are talking about it. my FB feed often makes me want to throw my MacBook across the room in anger, because everyone seems to be making good points -- violence isn't the answer, don't burn your own neighborhoods, violence draws cameras away from the 99% who protest peacefully, violence in response to violence is never the answer, violence turns off the fat, white, comfortable middle who might want to be sympathetic but have a tough time wrapping their heads around the images they see -- while missing THE POINT, which is that this was always going to happen, and it's been 40 years in the making, if not longer.

two articles have caught my eye in the past 24 hours, and i'll post them in full here:

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I grew up across the street from Mondawmin Mall, where today's riots began. My mother was raised in the same housing project, Gilmor Homes, where Freddie Gray was killed. Everyone I knew who lived in that world regarded the police not with admiration and respect but with fear and caution. People write these feelings off as wholly irrational at their own peril, or their own leisure. The case against the Baltimore police, and the society that superintends them, is easily made:

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Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson ....
And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victims—if charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching him—a beating that led the police commissioner to say he was “shocked.”

The money paid out by the city to cover for the brutal acts of its police department would be enough to build "a state-of-the-art rec center or renovations at more than 30 playgrounds." Instead, the money was used to cover for the brutal acts of the city's police department and ensure they remained well beyond any semblance of justice.

Now, tonight, I turn on the news and I see politicians calling for young people in Baltimore to remain peaceful and "nonviolent." These well-intended pleas strike me as the right answer to the wrong question. To understand the question, it's worth remembering what, specifically, happened to Freddie Gray. An officer made eye contact with Gray. Gray, for unknown reasons, ran. The officer and his colleagues then detained Gray. They found him in possession of a switchblade. They arrested him while he yelled in pain. And then, within an hour, his spine was mostly severed. A week later, he was dead. What specifically was the crime here? What particular threat did Freddie Gray pose? Why is mere eye contact and then running worthy of detention at the hands of the state? Why is Freddie Gray dead?

When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse.

The people now calling for nonviolence are not prepared to answer these questions. Many of them are charged with enforcing the very policies that led to Gray's death, and yet they can offer no rational justification for Gray's death and so they appeal for calm. But there was no official appeal for calm when Gray was being arrested. There was no appeal for calm when Jerriel Lyles was assaulted. (“The blow was so heavy. My eyes swelled up. Blood was dripping down my nose and out my eye.”) There was no claim for nonviolence on behalf of Venus Green. (“Bitch, you ain’t no better than any of the other old black bitches I have locked up.”) There was no plea for peace on behalf of Starr Brown. (“They slammed me down on my face,” Brown added, her voice cracking. “The skin was gone on my face.")

When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.

As Riots Follow Freddie Gray's Death in Baltimore, Calls for Calm Ring Hollow - The Atlantic


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Brett, speaking only for myself, I agree with your point that the principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela and all great opposition leaders throughout history have always preached this precept. Further, it is critical that in any democracy, investigation must be completed and due process must be honored before any government or police members are judged responsible.

That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.

The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids’ game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don’t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.

Orioles COO John Angelos offers eye-opening perspective on Baltimore protests | For The Win
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Old 04-28-2015, 11:08 AM   #780
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If it wasn't that, it would be something else like Freddie Gray's arrest record (that one is already starting up). No one in media or in power has any interest in talking about the real issue here.


we do seem to have lost sight of the fact that his spine was severed and his voice box was crushed while in police custody.

not that the end result makes any difference, but to me, this is a magnitude of horror much higher than a trigger-happy cop firing first and asking questions later.
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