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Old 12-22-2014, 01:55 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by nbelcik View Post
There was a shooting of an unarmed person in the stairwell of a building in New York City by an officer, the guy wasn't doing anything but still ended up getting shot.
I seriously doubt he got shot for doing nothing, something had to escalate it.

This brings up another point that, like the shooting the leg thing, is a common misconception and that is that if an officer shoots an "unarmed" person that he his somehow automatically in the wrong.

There is no way for a cop to know the full capabilities of someone they are dealing with. There are plenty of strong, skilled people that could easily kill someone with their bare hands. Also, think about this, the person may be unarmed but the COP isn't. This works for and against the cop. If a cop gets in a fight with someone, all it takes is 1 good punch and the officer could be out cold, and his pistol for the taking. Also, what if the cop is fighting with someone and he knows he only has 5 seconds left before physical exhaustion sets in?


Let's say theres a 5'10" 150 lbs cop that just responded to a murder and the suspect who is 6'5 250 lbs and was still there and he walks towards the cop clenching his fists saying "I'm gonna kill you too!" The cop draws and orders him to stop or he'll shoot. The suspect is still coming and is 10 feet from the cop. What does the cop do? Run away and let the murderer get away, or shoot?

Also, believe it or not teasers and pepper spray do not work on everyone, and if a physical confrontation goes on too long, the officer may have no other choice.
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Old 12-22-2014, 02:16 PM   #617
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Not advocating police brutality, but the tone of the previous page towards your average police officer was really disturbing. Most of my family works in the service industry and their lives are constantly affected by it.

As was mentioned, not quite so gracefully, by YBORCITY, it's not just fatalities that are an issue in the field.

I realize these situations are horrible, but I hate the idea, as well, that what police officers do for us, in general, is some kind of no big deal thing, either.
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Old 12-22-2014, 07:21 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by YBORCITY View Post
So your just going by "fatalities."?

You're not going to count the percentage of suicides, divorce rate, mentally burned out in 5-10 years because your dealing with scum of a population every single day. Or the fact that the very next traffic stop maybe the last moments you have on earth.... so...yeah policing is an extremely easy job.
To be honest, I don't think police officers make it even in the top 10 of many of those lists. For sure they are not in the top 10 of suicides (maybe not even in top 20). I am fairly certain that lawyers, doctors, dentists are all worse off in essentially every category.

Not to say police officers have a stress-free living, but the statistics simply do not bear out what I think the public assumes with respect to this profession.
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Old 12-22-2014, 07:34 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
I seriously doubt he got shot for doing nothing, something had to escalate it.

This brings up another point that, like the shooting the leg thing, is a common misconception and that is that if an officer shoots an "unarmed" person that he his somehow automatically in the wrong.

There is no way for a cop to know the full capabilities of someone they are dealing with. There are plenty of strong, skilled people that could easily kill someone with their bare hands. Also, think about this, the person may be unarmed but the COP isn't. This works for and against the cop. If a cop gets in a fight with someone, all it takes is 1 good punch and the officer could be out cold, and his pistol for the taking. Also, what if the cop is fighting with someone and he knows he only has 5 seconds left before physical exhaustion sets in?


Let's say theres a 5'10" 150 lbs cop that just responded to a murder and the suspect who is 6'5 250 lbs and was still there and he walks towards the cop clenching his fists saying "I'm gonna kill you too!" The cop draws and orders him to stop or he'll shoot. The suspect is still coming and is 10 feet from the cop. What does the cop do? Run away and let the murderer get away, or shoot?

Also, believe it or not teasers and pepper spray do not work on everyone, and if a physical confrontation goes on too long, the officer may have no other choice.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6199428 The rookie police officer "accidentally" shot him. No escalation at all.

You're going into hypothetical situations where force may or may not be justified. But the cops need to to avoid using lethal force in situations where lethal force isn't justified. Too many cops move immediately to lethal force, even in cases when lethal force isn't justified.

Obviously one of the problems is police using excessive force, but what people are really upset about is the fact that cops are never held responsible for the murders of unarmed people. John Crawford, Eric Garner, the unarmed black man in Milwaukie, cops gunned these people down and faced no consequences. Darren Wilson's key witness was found to have completely made up her testimony and the prosecutor knew she was making it up. Yet, they still let her testify and Wilson wasn't indicted in a case that clearly required an indictment. The people who murder cops face the consequences, and rightly so. But cops face no consequences. The people protesting don't want the police to be abolished, they want better policing and a police force that respects citizens rather than treating them like "scum."



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Old 12-23-2014, 11:08 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
I seriously doubt he got shot for doing nothing, something had to escalate it.

This brings up another point that, like the shooting the leg thing, is a common misconception and that is that if an officer shoots an "unarmed" person that he his somehow automatically in the wrong.

There is no way for a cop to know the full capabilities of someone they are dealing with. There are plenty of strong, skilled people that could easily kill someone with their bare hands. Also, think about this, the person may be unarmed but the COP isn't. This works for and against the cop. If a cop gets in a fight with someone, all it takes is 1 good punch and the officer could be out cold, and his pistol for the taking. Also, what if the cop is fighting with someone and he knows he only has 5 seconds left before physical exhaustion sets in?


Let's say theres a 5'10" 150 lbs cop that just responded to a murder and the suspect who is 6'5 250 lbs and was still there and he walks towards the cop clenching his fists saying "I'm gonna kill you too!" The cop draws and orders him to stop or he'll shoot. The suspect is still coming and is 10 feet from the cop. What does the cop do? Run away and let the murderer get away, or shoot?

Also, believe it or not teasers and pepper spray do not work on everyone, and if a physical confrontation goes on too long, the officer may have no other choice.
Here's a hypothetical scenario for you:

Your grandpa is standing outside a mart, possibly selling individual cigarettes. He is non-violent, non-confrontational, and non-threatening. Cops arrive to arrest him, and one of the cops uses an illegal choke hold to subdue him, a choke hold that the coroner determines was enough of a contributing factor in your grandpa's death that the cause of death is listed as homicide.

Would you be justifiably upset if the grand jury refused to press charges against a cop who contributed to your grandpa's death with the use of an illegal choke hold?
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Old 12-23-2014, 11:32 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
I seriously doubt he got shot for doing nothing, something had to escalate it.

This brings up another point that, like the shooting the leg thing, is a common misconception and that is that if an officer shoots an "unarmed" person that he his somehow automatically in the wrong.

There is no way for a cop to know the full capabilities of someone they are dealing with. There are plenty of strong, skilled people that could easily kill someone with their bare hands. Also, think about this, the person may be unarmed but the COP isn't. This works for and against the cop. If a cop gets in a fight with someone, all it takes is 1 good punch and the officer could be out cold, and his pistol for the taking. Also, what if the cop is fighting with someone and he knows he only has 5 seconds left before physical exhaustion sets in?


Let's say theres a 5'10" 150 lbs cop that just responded to a murder and the suspect who is 6'5 250 lbs and was still there and he walks towards the cop clenching his fists saying "I'm gonna kill you too!" The cop draws and orders him to stop or he'll shoot. The suspect is still coming and is 10 feet from the cop. What does the cop do? Run away and let the murderer get away, or shoot?

Also, believe it or not teasers and pepper spray do not work on everyone, and if a physical confrontation goes on too long, the officer may have no other choice.
The cop was walking with his gun out (against the rules) and was not supposed to be on high rise duty. And he called his union rep before an ambulance. Guy's a motherfucker.
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Old 12-23-2014, 11:37 AM   #622
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Here's a list of the 10 most dangerous jobs in America. Spoiler: being a cop isn't on the list.

The 10 Deadliest Jobs:
1. Logging workers
2. Fishers and related fishing workers
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers
4. Roofers
5. Structural iron and steel workers
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers
10. Construction laborers


America's 10 Deadliest Jobs - Forbes


Top 10 Most Dangerous Jobs in the Country: Police Officer is NOT on the List | The Free Thought Project


"What exactly is more dangerous than being a cop? For starters, a trash collector is twice as likely to die on the job versus a cop, fishing is 7 times more dangerous than being a cop, and logging workers, nearly 9 times more dangerous.
Here are occupations more dangerous than being a police officer. Number of deaths per 100,000 employed:
  1. Logging workers: 127.8
  2. Fishermen: 117.0
  3. Aircraft pilots: 53.4
  4. Roofers: 40.5
  5. Garbage collectors: 36.8
  6. Electrical power line installation/repair: 29.8
  7. Truck drivers: 22.8
  8. Oil and gas extraction: 21.9
  9. Farmers and ranchers: 21.3
  10. Construction workers: 17.4

The majority of police deaths are not as a result of violence in the line of duty either, most have occurred accidentally rather than feloniously. Most police officers die, not in some heroic high speed pursuit of a child murderer, but in routine traffic accidents."
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Old 12-23-2014, 05:42 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Here's a hypothetical scenario for you:

Your grandpa is standing outside a mart, possibly selling individual cigarettes. He is non-violent, non-confrontational, and non-threatening. Cops arrive to arrest him, and one of the cops uses an illegal choke hold to subdue him, a choke hold that the coroner determines was enough of a contributing factor in your grandpa's death that the cause of death is listed as homicide.

Would you be justifiably upset if the grand jury refused to press charges against a cop who contributed to your grandpa's death with the use of an illegal choke hold?
Well they are both dead already, but the answer is Yes. Happy?

I've never defended that particular incident which you are alluding to. I've seen the video and the cop's choke hold was inexcuseable. IMO he should at MINIMUM have lost his job.

I am not a police cheerleader like you may think. I think a LOT of things that happen in law enforcement today are bullshit, and this is coming from someone IN law enforcement. I'm simply presenting the other side of the coin which nobody else would ever bring up on this forum.

Care to answer mine now?
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Old 12-23-2014, 05:54 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by Hollow Island View Post
Here's a list of the 10 most dangerous jobs in America. Spoiler: being a cop isn't on the list.

The 10 Deadliest Jobs:
1. Logging workers
2. Fishers and related fishing workers
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers
4. Roofers
5. Structural iron and steel workers
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers
10. Construction laborers


America's 10 Deadliest Jobs - Forbes


Top 10 Most Dangerous Jobs in the Country: Police Officer is NOT on the List | The Free Thought Project


"What exactly is more dangerous than being a cop? For starters, a trash collector is twice as likely to die on the job versus a cop, fishing is 7 times more dangerous than being a cop, and logging workers, nearly 9 times more dangerous.
Here are occupations more dangerous than being a police officer. Number of deaths per 100,000 employed:
  1. Logging workers: 127.8
  2. Fishermen: 117.0
  3. Aircraft pilots: 53.4
  4. Roofers: 40.5
  5. Garbage collectors: 36.8
  6. Electrical power line installation/repair: 29.8
  7. Truck drivers: 22.8
  8. Oil and gas extraction: 21.9
  9. Farmers and ranchers: 21.3
  10. Construction workers: 17.4

The majority of police deaths are not as a result of violence in the line of duty either, most have occurred accidentally rather than feloniously. Most police officers die, not in some heroic high speed pursuit of a child murderer, but in routine traffic accidents."
Again, your "statistics" are flawed. Do they take into account anything other than fatalities? What about fights, injuries, stabbings, non fatal shootings, car crashes, being run over by a car while doing a traffic stop, etc etc etc.

My argument isn't that being a cop is the MOST dangerous job, but rather it is more dangerous than the naysayers on here (with no law enforcement experience, i might add) that seem to think its "no different than any other job", like a walmart greeter for instance.
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Old 12-23-2014, 06:00 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by bono_212 View Post
Not advocating police brutality, but the tone of the previous page towards your average police officer was really disturbing. Most of my family works in the service industry and their lives are constantly affected by it.

As was mentioned, not quite so gracefully, by YBORCITY, it's not just fatalities that are an issue in the field.

I realize these situations are horrible, but I hate the idea, as well, that what police officers do for us, in general, is some kind of no big deal thing, either.
Great post
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Old 12-23-2014, 06:11 PM   #626
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Again, your "statistics" are flawed. Do they take into account anything other than fatalities? What about fights, injuries, stabbings, non fatal shootings, car crashes, being run over by a car while doing a traffic stop, etc etc etc.

My argument isn't that being a cop is the MOST dangerous job, but rather it is more dangerous than the naysayers on here (with no law enforcement experience, i might add) that seem to think its "no different than any other job", like a walmart greeter for instance.

The other job death statistics don't take into account injuries, so it's likely that if you included injuries in all the statistics, they would still be similar to the death statistics.

You can't just say that statistics are flawed just because they don't fit into your preconceived notions. I was conservative until I started to look at statistics that made me reconsider my firmly held beliefs.


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Old 12-23-2014, 06:19 PM   #627
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I've never defended that particular incident which you are alluding to. I've seen the video and the cop's choke hold was inexcuseable. IMO he should at MINIMUM have lost his job.
Glad we're in agreement here. And though it's true you've never defended that particular incident, your only commentary on it so far is to only highlight protestors who were allegedly calling for violence against cops.

Quote:
A Fox affiliate in Baltimore aired a segment on Sunday showing footage from a "Justice For All" demonstration in Washington, D.C. in which it edited a chant to sound like protestors were shouting "kill a cop."

"At this rally in Washington, D.C. protestors chanted, 'we won't stop, we can't stop, so kill a cop,'" the WBFF broadcast said.

But the full footage, flagged by Gawker on Monday via C-SPAN, revealed that the chant was "we won't stop, we can't stop, 'til killer cops are in cell blocks."

Quote:
Care to answer mine now?
Which one? What should a cop do if a guy is charging at him, ignoring orders to stop and screaming that he's going to kill him? In that instance, yes, I believe lethal force would be justified.

I think the problem is that, like has been noted upthread, there have been plenty of instances lately where police have responded with lethal force, despite suspects who did not themselves escalate the situation. I totally acknowledge that law enforcement is a difficult and dangerous job, but it seems that there are too many instances where police tactics seem tragically out of step with a force that is supposed to protect and serve its citizens.
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Old 12-24-2014, 12:49 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by bono_212 View Post
Not advocating police brutality, but the tone of the previous page towards your average police officer was really disturbing. Most of my family works in the service industry and their lives are constantly affected by it.

As was mentioned, not quite so gracefully, by YBORCITY, it's not just fatalities that are an issue in the field.

I realize these situations are horrible, but I hate the idea, as well, that what police officers do for us, in general, is some kind of no big deal thing, either.

up: Best post of the thread.


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Old 12-24-2014, 12:51 AM   #629
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The other job death statistics don't take into account injuries, so it's likely that if you included injuries in all the statistics, they would still be similar to the death statistics.

You can't just say that statistics are flawed just because they don't fit into your preconceived notions. I was conservative until I started to look at statistics that made me reconsider my firmly held beliefs.
Well, considering i have over 6 years law enforcement experience, id like to think they are a little more than "preconceived notions."

Again, my argument is not that LE is the #1 most dangerous job, or even in the top 10. But that it is not the simply "basically no dangerous that most any other job", as some have said on here.

How many of those jobs on the top 10 are they likely to get in fights, car crashes, lethal force incidents, shootings, encounter violent and dangerous criminals, and work often alone in potentially dangerous situations? Also, think about the physical and mental toll it takes on a cop and imagine all the things they will have seen during their career that most people dont have to see. Murder scenes, fatal car wrecks, responding to suicide calls, etc etc. My dad was a local cop and he told me a story about when he responded to a gunshot at a house. They entered and found a guy sitting in a chair that blew his head off with a shotgun and his brains were dripping off the ceiling. Another time they found someone's head in the woods.

So no, I dont thing being a cop is "basically like any other job."
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Old 12-25-2014, 12:04 AM   #630
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