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Old 08-19-2014, 06:08 AM   #241
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That is a smaller sample size though, it's way easier to have a productive discussion when there are only half a dozen regular contributors.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:11 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Another thought is to allow/recruit some centrist and conservative leaning mods...
I've always thought of Diemen as being pretty centrist. I really don't think there's any need to get another mod especially given the scale of this board.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:17 AM   #243
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You're smarter than that. I don't mean to be blunt, but if you can't tell when somebody is posting their personal opinion and when they are moderating a thread, I would suggest working on your reading comprehension.
Perhaps I'm not being clear. It is his personal opinion and status as a mod - and the lack of other, perhaps more neutral mods - that makes the forum less enjoyable. He should either be quiet about his opinions, or add other mods with different views.


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Let's not drag into this discussion all the stupid shit I said a whole decade ago during my weird religious phase or we'll be here all night. All week if it comes complete with the Axver Liked U2 Too Much Archives.
Hey, we both did. And that's okay. In fact, because of the debates with Melon in THIS FORUM back in 2004, that I changed my mind (somewhat - I'm still a confessed homophobe) on the matter. And that is my point - unless you allow a healthy (even if heated) debate to occur, nothing will change.

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And let's be honest, "I got lots of PMs!" is never a good defence, no matter how true it sometimes is. I'm not suggesting I doubt you; it's just a poor Internet debating technique.
Fair enough, and thank you for not denying that you did send it - which should help others understand that back then - there was an "undergound" Conservative support system because of the bullying going on by the Liberals in the public forum.


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I don't want to drag this too far off-topic, but I don't think the problem is the lack of far-right nutters (I didn't think you were one, though your behaviour in this thread is making me wonder - partly because of the positions you are arguing and partly because of how you are doing so).
I agree I've been more caustic in this thread than usual. I guess I just wanted to point out that the incident is not so clear-cut. But I also think I made numerous valid points that went unaddressed - but I'm used to that. Only non-Liberals get hounded to answer EVERY SINGLE post without being accused of evading the question. That being said - I'm willing to check-fire and make adjustments.

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I think the problem is that this forum is really, really, really Americentric, and US political debate seems to only function at present if it is hyper-polarised. It's not really much of a global politics forum, is it? Even when threads start for events outside the US, there is a habit of it coming back to some US dispute because most posters are from the US. I seem to recall there was a bit more on the global politics front some years ago but they tended to get lost amidst all the US threads and many international posters drifted away - and now that things are a bit quieter, their absence is really obvious.
Perhaps. But the forum has always been pretty "Americentric"...
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:40 AM   #244
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Perhaps I'm not being clear. It is his personal opinion and status as a mod - and the lack of other, perhaps more neutral mods - that makes the forum less enjoyable. He should either be quiet about his opinions, or add other mods with different views.
I completely disagree and I'm not sure we're going to meet any kind of understanding here. My attitude on any forum - and believe me I've posted a lot - is that unless mods are clearly moderating, they should be free to post their own thoughts without that in any way being linked to their moderating (unless they are breaking the rules).

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Hey, we both did. And that's okay. In fact, because of the debates with Melon in THIS FORUM back in 2004, that I changed my mind (somewhat - I'm still a confessed homophobe) on the matter. And that is my point - unless you allow a healthy (even if heated) debate to occur, nothing will change.

Fair enough, and thank you for not denying that you did send it - which should help others understand that back then - there was an "undergound" Conservative support system because of the bullying going on by the Liberals in the public forum.
I too would certainly credit melon, et al. with showing me that some of the people and ideologies I'd dabbled in with were very, very misguided and unpleasant. So I agree about the importance of healthy debate, it's just that I don't think that's been provided by certain individuals (I don't know if I can or should name names, but think of a policeman riding a steam train to get to a major car race).

Also, I would never deny that we had exchanged PMs, though the truth is that I'd forgotten what we discussed.

Quote:
I agree I've been more caustic in this thread than usual. I guess I just wanted to point out that the incident is not so clear-cut. But I also think I made numerous valid points that went unaddressed - but I'm used to that. Only non-Liberals get hounded to answer EVERY SINGLE post without being accused of evading the question. That being said - I'm willing to check-fire and make adjustments.
I would like to think of myself as somewhat of a detached observer despite my obvious political biases, in that I'm looking in from far away with a sense of bafflement and don't pretend to understand the nuances of US race relations. I feel that on the few occasions when a point you have made has gone unaddressed, it has usually not been one central to the discussion or to the validity of opinions you are contesting (though feel free to give examples otherwise), while you seem to have failed to acknowledge very persuasive replies or to respond to points that go to the heart of your argument. But I have little more to add in that regard, and I'll let the main participants in this thread pick up from here.

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Perhaps. But the forum has always been pretty "Americentric"...
Pretty much my point. I do recall more UK politics back in the day though, and more than just a little bit of European stuff. And I definitely remember that and the occasional Aussie thread getting lost in the mix of heated US threads. I can see why that would drive away international posters.

(Also, in general I think this forum has slowed down. Compare EYKIW today with EYKIW from ten years ago. It's not just an FYM phenomenon. I remember when I would have a whole page of threads in EYKIW with new posts to check if I didn't visit for a day. Now I'm lucky if there are more than two or three threads with new posts.)
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:42 AM   #245
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I don't see the big deal. It's not like Diemen is abusing his power in these debates. If he was handing out warnings and banning people that he disagreed with, then yes he would be abusing his power. But I haven't seen that happen once.


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Old 08-19-2014, 07:10 AM   #246
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To the assertion that conservatives are less represented on this forum now than they were say ten years ago: I think that is a reflection of US politics as a whole. Over the past decade, the American right has gone out of its way in efforts to dissolve those things the USA purports itself most to stand for: equality of rights and opportunity. This is apparent everywhere from attacks on unions to efforts to curtail minority rights, from uncompromising stances on women's reproductive rights to insistence that LGBT people should not be allowed marriage rights. Then when asked to justify these stances, there is little more than appeals to logical fallacies, as when Indy when pressed on gay marriage just kept insisting that it would lead to people marrying dogs and goats or whatever.

The intransigence the Right has shown is conspicuously apparent in the last presidential election, where Romney received little to no support from women and minorities. Conservative politics are increasingly untenable for a majority of the US population. This doesn't mean that an individual conservative has nothing of value to say or that he or she should be discounted just for identifying as a conservative, but rather that the movement as a whole is painting itself into a pretty tight corner. I think voting statistics bear this out.
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:14 AM   #247
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As a mod, he's the one who comes in and tells people to calm down/cut the shit when they jump on people and start turning things personal. He's not resorting to name calling in his own disagreements, so I really fail to see what the issue is...other than that he has an opinion (and one that differs from your own) on the subject--something as a poster, he's absolutely allowed to express.
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:43 AM   #248
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You know - it may serve this forum better to have a more politically neutral mod. Unless the intention is for this forum to be a backslapping Liberal circle-jerk. If that IS the intention, you are succeeding quite well. That is also why it is dying a slow (but accelerating) death.

A few years back in FYM - debate across the political spectrum was encouraged (yet, it was never exactly equal - but this is a U2 website - so Left-leaning is expected). Now, it seems you've bullied/bored away any dissenting (i.e. - non-Liberal) opinions.

I can't make the link work on my phone, what was particularly liberal and political about this link?


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Old 08-19-2014, 08:00 AM   #249
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I have no way of knowing that.

Then you're speaking without knowing the facts, and it seems like you're just trying pick a fight.

Diemen and I are probably pretty closely aligned in our thinking, yet he's put me in my place several times. If you can't see that then you're not paying attention to the facts.



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Old 08-19-2014, 09:00 AM   #250
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Racist Police Response to Ferguson Protests

Diemen is awesome and much more rational and composed than he has any right to be all things considered.

I fundamentally disagree with the notion that we need to balance this forum's moderation to make it even on the scale of American partisanship, because that would imply that both sides automatically have valid viewpoints. I don't want to use the old line that reality has a liberal bias, but just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean it has to be respected. Only your right to an opinion has to be respected.

And Iron Yuppie's post is terrific. The reason this forum is so liberal is not because the mods and members chased out the right wingers. It's because the right wingers simply aren't represented in the demographics of this forum. There are not a ton of older white southern men on this forum, which is where most of the conservative movement exists these days.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:57 AM   #251
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The reason this forum is so liberal is not because the mods and members chased out the right wingers.
I bet those Right Wingers are very pleased they have you to speak for them.

The point that young people are mostly Liberal is as old as politics. The fact is - U2 is old, and so is the fan base (meaning - old and crusty over 30 geezers).

As a former Republican and as a current Independent (and as an online friend to many former posters) the behavior/attitude of the mods and members of FYM have certainly played a part in their departure, and are the primary cause for the current boredom of the forum (there's more one-sided circle-jerking here than on a baseball team's subreddit).
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:02 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
To the assertion that conservatives are less represented on this forum now than they were say ten years ago: I think that is a reflection of US politics as a whole. Over the past decade, the American right has gone out of its way in efforts to dissolve those things the USA purports itself most to stand for: equality of rights and opportunity. This is apparent everywhere from attacks on unions to efforts to curtail minority rights, from uncompromising stances on women's reproductive rights to insistence that LGBT people should not be allowed marriage rights. Then when asked to justify these stances, there is little more than appeals to logical fallacies, as when Indy when pressed on gay marriage just kept insisting that it would lead to people marrying dogs and goats or whatever.

The intransigence the Right has shown is conspicuously apparent in the last presidential election, where Romney received little to no support from women and minorities. Conservative politics are increasingly untenable for a majority of the US population. This doesn't mean that an individual conservative has nothing of value to say or that he or she should be discounted just for identifying as a conservative, but rather that the movement as a whole is painting itself into a pretty tight corner. I think voting statistics bear this out.
Just read the anonymous comments in any major news story on the sites that still permit them. There are more people that disagree with the Left than you've estimated.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:20 AM   #253
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I find the comments sections on news websites to be about 90% full of unhinged morons who don't seem to be able to spell or use grammar correctly. But maybe that's just Australia.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:32 AM   #254
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I find the comments sections on news websites to be about 90% full of unhinged morons who don't seem to be able to spell or use grammar correctly. But maybe that's just Australia.

There's that - and a lot of extremism (which is concerning). My point is that the comments vary wildly.

I don't think we need that much craziness here, but a little more variety would probably be more thought provoking. Believe it or not - there are intelligent conservative/centrists out there...

Of course - if the Liberals here love things the way they are, why would they change anything? They will (already have) argue there's no need to change anything. However, if you want to hear some different points of view and genuinely engage with people with a different world view than your own - then changing the role of the mods or adding a conservative and centrist mod might be a good way to get that going.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:34 AM   #255
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I don't agree about adding another mod, simply because it's completely impracticable, this site has way less visitors than it used to, and it seems quite arbitrary. But I wish there were more voices, for sure. And more threads not about America. You guys all think you're so goddamn good.
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