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Old 08-18-2014, 07:02 PM   #196
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There is probably no organization (save for maybe the military) where the internal code is followed so cultishly and with such blindness and devotion to make it essentially impossible to extract the truth. There is zero transparency and a remarkable willingness to cover things up that simply does not exist in any other type of profession. For that reason alone I typically don't trust the police as far as I can spit.
Dash cams and lapel cams should be mandatory.
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:02 PM   #197
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Thanks. (re the cop/shooting thing)
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:22 PM   #198
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Thanks. (re the cop/shooting thing)
The way I understood it, the actual ability to "maim shot" or whatever you want to call it, isn't really a simple thing to do, and the chances of accidentally fatally wounding someone, or opening the police department up to a lawsuit are so great, that the only time it's really "worth it" to shoot is when the need is to shoot to kill.


(In which case, IMO, Brown never should have been fired upon)
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:31 PM   #199
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The way I understood it, the actual ability to "maim shot" or whatever you want to call it, isn't really a simple thing to do, and the chances of accidentally fatally wounding someone, or opening the police department up to a lawsuit are so great, that the only time it's really "worth it" to shoot is when the need is to shoot to kill.


(In which case, IMO, Brown never should have been fired upon)

Ah that makes sense. I'll say this. If I ever got cocky with a cop, if he or she drew their gun, that would be enough me to cry like a baby.


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Old 08-18-2014, 07:37 PM   #200
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John Oliver with a nice perspective on this whole thing:

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Old 08-18-2014, 07:45 PM   #201
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I'm so glad that Darren Wilson was scouring the music likes on Michael Brown's Facebook page before deciding it was high time to shoot him six times. Glad he at least had rap music as grounds for letting the lead fly.

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But Aeon is one person, that's what I'm trying to get at. I know you know that, and I know you're mad, so I'm not trying to snipe at you. I agree with nearly everything you've said. I've been very impressed, in fact, with many of your arguments. It was just that one thing that bothered me.
I appreciate your understanding. I know that I'm a tad over-the-top right now (but only a little bit). I'm not sure what it is. There's just something about this story that is making my skin crawl, and I can't really figure out why this one bothers me more than others. Maybe it's just how egregiously and obviously wrong the police have been from the jump and that they still have people defending them. As if a few people looting that one time means they've got carte blanche to violate people's rights again and again, as Aeon heavily implied.

I apologize that Aeon is taking the brunt of my anger, but he's really the only person I've directly encountered online or otherwise who has come to bat for these cops who have been just despicable at every turn.
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:00 PM   #202
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Lame Internet Hug .

I've been there. There have been moments where I feel so helplessly angry about a topic, either because I don't understand why something has happened, or because I feel powerless to do anything. It's one of the worst feelings.
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:01 PM   #203
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I apologize that Aeon is taking the brunt of my anger, but he's really the only person I've directly encountered online or otherwise who has come to bat for these cops who have been just despicable at every turn.
Thank you. I know what I'm getting into in this forum. When I get worn out being the only, or one of the few, non-Liberals, I take a break.

I am only "coming to bat" for the officer because I sense he was judged guilty before the facts were established. This is also a national news story and it's a bit easier to find articles to support/debunk a point of view - thus easier to engage in a forum discussion.

My mind is not set in stone on this. It may turn out that the cop did shoot a surrendering Michael Brown. If that is true, he is guilty of some degree of murder. It may turn out he was justified to shoot, but shooting him six times was excessive use of force. Or it may turn out that Michael Brown charged the officer, and kept charging, until he was shot dead.

I am not married to my opinions. As evidence changes - my mind changes.
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:07 PM   #204
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Thank you. I know what I'm getting into in this forum. When I get worn out being the only, or one of the few, non-Liberals, I take a break.

I am only "coming to bat" for the officer because I sense he was judged guilty before the facts were established. This is also a national news story and it's a bit easier to find articles to support/debunk a point of view - thus easier to engage in a forum discussion.

My mind is not set in stone on this. It may turn out that the cop did shoot a surrendering Michael Brown. If that is true, he is guilty of some degree of murder. It may turn out he was justified to shoot, but shooting him six times was excessive use of force. Or it may turn out that Michael Brown charged the officer, and kept charging, until he was shot dead.

I am not married to my opinions. As evidence changes - my mind changes.
I just want to know how you can justify shooting him six times, even based on the officers account of what happened, he was running away. There were clearly other people on the street, hell, he even had a friend with him. Shooting six bullets is incredibly irresponsible, never mind overuse of force. And then, how does someone running away pose a deadly threat?

It's one thing to feel in your heart that Brown threatened the officer, hit the officer, or potentially went for the gun. But no matter how you slice it, he didn't have the gun when he was running away. He did not pose a deadly risk, nor would he have, had he come at the officer empty handed. Unless, as I believe Cori pointed out, he was hopped up on some kind of drug that was making him act in an unhinged manner, which not one person has said was the case.

There are time to be frustrated at a world that seems to try to be painted in black and white. This isn't one of those times, though. I feel like you're struggling to make this be an issue you can use to represent a wrong you see in the world, but it just doesn't work. Sometimes a police officer abuses his power and sometimes a police officer has to be punished for that.

What I hate about this even more is that it always ends up painting the police force in such a bleak light. Bad apples and all that jazz. I still respect the fact that they do a much harder job than I do.
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:31 PM   #205
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I just want to know how you can justify shooting him six times, even based on the officers account of what happened, he was running away.
No, the officer's account is that Michael Brown initially ran away after the struggle in the truck. When Darren Wilson ordered them to freeze, they both stopped and turned around about 30 feet away (not a huge distance BTW). Then, after some words, Michael Brown charged Wilson and he kept charging until he was finally shot dead - a few feet away. That is the officer's story.

This story seems to be corroborated by at least one eye witness describing what he saw in the background of one of the youtube videos. I don't trust eye witness accounts too much, but it does differ significantly from other accounts. Also - it seems many of the eye witness accounts contradict each other at the very important moments before the shooting.

In my mind - if Michael Brown was indeed charging toward the officer, then the shooting was justified. I would think this should be easy to prove with forensics (blood on the different parts of the road, diameter of the entry wounds to determine variation of distance - which would be consistent with charging story, location of the bullet casings...etc).

If there was no charging, then Darren Wilson is guilty of murder.
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:45 PM   #206
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:18 PM   #207
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I had someone tell me cops were trained to shoot until the immediate threat was gone.

I mean, I know you hear stories of people hopped up on goofballs and/or rage getting shot in the arm or shoulder and then keep coming at you, but I don't know that that seems to be the case here. Unless a bullet wound directly on top of the head meant that he was charging at the officer, head down, like a bull or something.
Yeah, there's no shoot to maim, that's not a thing.
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:26 PM   #208
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It is absolutely astounding to me the level of faith that some people have in the police, completely separate and apart from this incident.

There is probably no organization (save for maybe the military) where the internal code is followed so cultishly and with such blindness and devotion to make it essentially impossible to extract the truth. There is zero transparency and a remarkable willingness to cover things up that simply does not exist in any other type of profession. For that reason alone I typically don't trust the police as far as I can spit.
I'll probably get some shit from 212er for this, but have you met any firefighters lately? The difference being that their line of work doesn't really put them in the same situations as cops regarding what they'd have to try to sweep under the rug. 2/3 of the firefighter civil service test here is a personality test, your score is designed to reflect how well you fit into never ratting out your "brothers."
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:42 PM   #209
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I'll probably get some shit from 212er for this, but have you met any firefighters lately? The difference being that their line of work doesn't really put them in the same situations as cops regarding what they'd have to try to sweep under the rug. 2/3 of the firefighter civil service test here is a personality test, your score is designed to reflect how well you fit into never ratting out your "brothers."
Most of the stuff that they're sweeping under the rug, in my experience, is marital infidelity. But, I'm from a small city and obviously my dad's not tellin me about some big secret society the fire department has. But, he usually blurts stuff out like that, on occasion and he's never given me reason to think that's the case in my city's department. Again, it's only a city of 30,000, I'm not sure there's much to hide.
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Old 08-19-2014, 12:08 AM   #210
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Most of the stuff that they're sweeping under the rug, in my experience, is marital infidelity. But, I'm from a small city and obviously my dad's not tellin me about some big secret society the fire department has. But, he usually blurts stuff out like that, on occasion and he's never given me reason to think that's the case in my city's department. Again, it's only a city of 30,000, I'm not sure there's much to hide.
Around here it's mostly drug use, or the odd number of abandoned buildings that tend to catch on fire more frequently any time cuts of FD funding in towns get mentioned. There's a fair amount of shady shit fire depts around here have done in order to get the ambulance service. None of it involves killing anyone, though.

It's the nature of the job though, you're not going to open the can of worms that gets opened when a cop uses deadly force because that's not exactly what firefighters do...
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